fire at Top Gun

[charles]

The local news reported a fire at the Top Gun range in Houston last night. It said that firefighters couldn't even go in since ammo was going off. I couldn't find any updates on the Houston Chronicle website. Just wondering if anyone has any updates.

Thanks!

[hheremtp]

A quick check of their web site stated that they were "closed for repairs" and would re-open July 9th

[G.C.Montgomery]

I was there, that report is bull. Fire was restricted to the range only, and then primarily on the first five lanes where our indoor defensive pistol group shoots and Matt Brockman and I run Tuesday training sessions. Most of the fire, smoke and water damage is on that bay. The ten lanes that comprise the other two shooting bays suffered mostly smoke damage. The showroom is fine other than the smell of smoke and some damage from the fire department poking holes in the roof.

There was ammo going off because our range bags were on fire. All that happens when handgun ammunition burns is the cases burst and occassionally fly off with enough force to cause a bruise and/or minor cut. But since almost all our ammunition was in our range bags and/or containers, it wasn't likely to be flying anywhere. The firefighters may have hesitated before going in but, it was no more than the time it took to get hoses ready and cut a hole in the roof to clear some smoke and get rid of some heat.

Everyone got out safely. We had a dozen or so shooters at our match and there were probably four or five other customers on the other lanes. Almost all of us shooting an the first bay lost our gear but, that's better than the alternative. There were a bunch of melted plastic/nylon puddles where our range bags used to be. Glocks don't do well in fires...Generally the only thing we found were slides. Two or three of us, myself included, were fortunate enough to recover some or all of our gear. The belongings of those using other lanes were probably covered in soot but that's it. Basically, as long as your gear wasn't in a shooting stall on lane 1-5 or otherwise near the fire itself, it was fine.

I'll share more information when/if it's appropriate.

[Oldgringo]

I was there, that report is bull. Fire was restricted to the range only, and then primarily on the first five lanes where our indoor defensive pistol group shoots and Matt Brockman and I run Tuesday training sessions. Most of the fire, smoke and water damage is on that bay. The ten lanes that comprise the other two shooting bays suffered mostly smoke damage. The showroom is fine other than the smell of smoke and some damage from the fire department poking holes in the roof.

There was ammo going off because our range bags were on fire. All that happens when handgun ammunition burns is the cases burst and occassionally fly off with enough force to cause a bruise and/or minor cut. But since almost all our ammunition was in our range bags and/or containers, it wasn't likely to be flying anywhere. The firefighters may have hesitated before going in but, it was no more than the time it took to get hoses ready and cut a hole in the roof to clear some smoke and get rid of some heat.

Everyone got out safely. We had a dozen or so shooters at our match and there were probably four or five other customers on the other lanes. Almost all of us shooting an the first bay lost our gear but, that's better than the alternative. There were a bunch of melted plastic/nylon puddles where our range bags used to be. Glocks don't do well in fires...Generally the only thing we found were slides. Two or three of us, myself included, were fortunate enough to recover some or all of our gear. The belongings of those using other lanes were probably covered in soot but that's it. Basically, as long as your gear wasn't in a shooting stall on lane 1-5 or otherwise near the fire itself, it was fine.

I'll share more information when/if it's appropriate.

Facts don't sell newspapers or TV time.

[bpet]

Is there any information on how the fire started?

[charles]

Glad to hear that it was not as serious as the TV news report. They said that the heat was so bad that they had to bring in a metro bus for the firefighters to cool off. I guess that was just the Houston heat, not heat from the fire of the ammo. Amazing how different the live account is from the TV news.

[ELB]

...They said that the heat was so bad that they had to bring in a metro bus for the firefighters to cool off. I guess that was just the Houston heat, ...

That's probably a good guess. Firefighter bunker gear is hot and heavy, covers every inch of your body, and when you strap on an airtank and mask with hood under your helmet, you get plenty hot even if it isn't 100 flaming degrees on the street. Then you walk into a building where the room temps might be well over what is going on outside, dragging tools and hoses and whatnot with you... "Rehab" (in this case, rehabilitation from dehydration and exhaustion, not dope) is an important part of any serious fire scene, wherever it is. Add in Texas heat, and it is a real big deal.

Been awhile since I checked, but one of the biggest, if not the biggest, cause of death for a firefighter is heart attack. Not burning ammo.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Is there any information on how the fire started?

As is the case at all ranges, there was unburned powder on the deck. Some how that powder was ignited. Just as shooters tried to put out those flames, burning embers reached additional flammable materials on the walls and things quickly got to a point where it really couldn't be stopped with anything other than a large volume of water or aqueous film forming foam. Only 10-15 seconds passed from the time the powder was ignited to the time it became immediately necessary to evacuate the area. I had just enough time to think "Don't let it get to the wall" but, even that took too long. The last guys to clear the range were running under a burning ceiling on their way out.

During this time, one shooter made a brave (borderline foolish) attempt to put out the fire with a dry chem extinguisher that was stored on the back wall of the range as we shoved people out the door. I'd tried to go back in with another extinguisher from the showroom when that shooter came through the door with an exhausted extinguisher. I could see behind him that the range was already completely filled with smoke. Had the other shooter not been very familiar with the range, he probably wouldn't have made it out and was seconds from being overcome with smoke.

There was indeed a Metro bus on scene after a while to provide cooling for the fire fighters. The range is housed in a commercial building that used to house Ferrari of Houston. It has a steel/tin roof and concrete exterior. If the air handlers and chillers are off, the interior temp of the ranges will reach 100-degrees by radiant heating alone in the Texas sun. Add a fire, and all the gear firefighters wear and it gets pretty hot in a hurry. The danger posed by the ammunition is minimal and reports indicating firefighters stayed back because of it are patently false.

[KD5NRH]

Firefighter bunker gear is hot and heavy, covers every inch of your body, and when you strap on an airtank and mask with hood under your helmet, you get plenty hot even if it isn't 100 flaming degrees on the street.

Just think about this poor guy: 90+ and no shade, and he was up there for at least an hour today.

[bpet]

Thank you Mr. Montgomery for the summary.

I will make it a point to be a little more conscious of my surroundings from now on when I am shooting indoors. Interesting story; glad I wasn't there to see it first hand.

[Excaliber]

Is there any information on how the fire started?

As is the case at all ranges, there was unburned powder on the deck. Some how that powder was ignited. Just as shooters tried to put out those flames, burning embers reached additional flammable materials on the walls and things quickly got to a point where it really couldn't be stopped with anything other than a large volume of water or aqueous film forming foam. Only 10-15 seconds passed from the time the powder was ignited to the time it became immediately necessary to evacuate the area. I had just enough time to think "Don't let it get to the wall" but, even that took too long. The last guys to clear the range were running under a burning ceiling on their way out.

During this time, one shooter made a brave (borderline foolish) attempt to put out the fire with a dry chem extinguisher that was stored on the back wall of the range as we shoved people out the door. I'd tried to go back in with another extinguisher from the showroom when that shooter came through the door with an exhausted extinguisher. I could see behind him that the range was already completely filled with smoke. Had the other shooter not been very familiar with the range, he probably wouldn't have made it out and was seconds from being overcome with smoke.

There was indeed a Metro bus on scene after a while to provide cooling for the fire fighters. The range is housed in a commercial building that used to house Ferrari of Houston. It has a steel/tin roof and concrete exterior. If the air handlers and chillers are off, the interior temp of the ranges will reach 100-degrees by radiant heating alone in the Texas sun. Add a fire, and all the gear firefighters wear and it gets pretty hot in a hurry. The danger posed by the ammunition is minimal and reports indicating firefighters stayed back because of it are patently false.

A good candidate for the start of the fire would be a spark from a round that struck the floor.

When I managed the indoor computerized target range for my agency, I witnessed this happen firsthand. A new recruit flinched a shot with a FMJ 9mm round, which then struck the edge of one of two concrete floor slabs that met at one of several expansion joints that ran horizontally across the range from wall to wall. I saw a large spark as it hit. Since this was a relatively common event in training new shooters, this by itself was not a big deal. However, this time the spark ignited unburned powder which had dropped into the approximately 3/4 inch wide space in the expansion joint over a couple of years as the range was swept. Eventually the powder had reached nearly to the top of the joint, which was 6 or more inches deep, bringing it close enough to the surface that a spark from a bullet impact could reach it. We instantly had a ribbon of fire and smoke the entire length of the joint. I wasn't concerned about building damage because the walls and ceilings were concrete with no combustible materials, but when it didn't burn out in a few seconds, I had the range officer deploy a dry chemical extinguisher. This made a mess and slowed down the burn rate, but didn't put the fire completely out because the extinguishing agent simply sat on top of the deep pile of burning powder in the joint. We then filled several water bottles from the rest room and thoroughly soaked the gap to finally put it out.

When I told the chief (who had worked with the architects and construction company to build the HQ building) we had set the range on fire, he said that was impossible because everything was concrete. I then told him that, while he was technically correct, we had in fact had a non damaging fire in the range, and explained how it happened. We quickly made arrangements for a contractor to come in, clean all the powder and debris out of the expansion joints, and fill them with a caulking material to prevent the accumulation of powder in the future.

Since that incident, I've seen reports of several similar events in different parts of the country. Powder accumulation in floor recesses is definitely something that should be inspected for and guarded against in any concrete floored range. Use of flammable materials in walls and ceilings is also clearly not a good idea. The rapid production of smoke during these incidents could easily blind and choke people to the point where they could not find their way out in time. The outcome could easily be much worse than it was at Top Gun.

[G.C.Montgomery]

A good candidate for the start of the fire would be a spark from a round that struck the floor...The outcome could easily be much worse than it was at Top Gun.

Agreed on all points. In this case, any round that caused such a spark would have been rebounding from backstop. I'd rather not get into discussing causes because I'm concerned there may be one or more civil suits brewing from all of this. I will say this, the arson investigators at that scene know absolutely nothing about firearms or gun ranges. To my knowledge, they finally attributed the incident to a "freak nofault accident" when they could see no one standing at the point of ignition on video.

Yes, there are at least two video cameras that caught the incident. While one shooter was standing about 3ft from the point of ignition and sorting through brass at the time, it's HIGHLY unlikely that he could have thrown a spent casing or anything with sufficient force to ignite live, primed case on the ground using the motions we saw as he discarded reject cases. We'll see what the insurance investigators say but, being that hottest parts of the range were covered in PE foam, we know it's presence was not a good thing. That foam was removed after the fire that destroyed Sportsman's Outlet because it was known to have been a primary factor in the speed with which that fire consumed the building. At some point, someone decided to put the foam back up and now we have seen similar results at Top Gun.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Quick update...No torts yet but, it looks like TopGun is basically blaming the shooters on the range for starting the fire. Nevermind the faulty backstop, accumulated powder or PE foam that all were primary factors. Nope, it's the shooters who basically defined the purpose of even having a range who are at fault. Yep, makes perfect sense to me. The ranges will be closed indefinitely and both the Tuesday night and Thursday night groups are looking for a new home. MSC doesn't seem terribly excited about hosting either group. ASC wants entirely too much money and is against all thing "tactical." So I'm not sure what's going to happen to either group at this time. I haven't got the money but, I've got the know-how...If anyone is interested in building an indoor commercial range to service west/southwest Houston, Sugarland, Richmond and Katy, I'd love to help!

[hheremtp]

Quick update...No torts yet but, it looks like TopGun is basically blaming the shooters on the range for starting the fire. Nevermind the faulty backstop, accumulated powder or PE foam that all were primary factors. Nope, it's the shooters who basically defined the purpose of even having a range who are at fault. Yep, makes perfect sense to me. The ranges will be closed indefinitely and both the Tuesday night and Thursday night groups are looking for a new home. MSC doesn't seem terribly excited about hosting either group. ASC wants entirely too much money and is against all thing "tactical." So I'm not sure what's going to happen to either group at this time. I haven't got the money but, I've got the know-how...If anyone is interested in building an indoor commercial range to service west/southwest Houston, Sugarland, Richmond and Katy, I'd love to help!

I'd love to have an indoor range in the sugarland/MO city area.

[Lodge2004]

Unfortunately for me, I've gone from feast to famine in the last couple of years. Sportsman's Outlet in Humble is near my home and still has not reopened from their fire and now Top Gun, near my work, is down. The range "in-between" is the 59-Gun Range and it's not a pleasant place to visit.

Have no idea what the financials are behind running an indoor range, but it seems like it could be a profitable business. There are quite a few anxious customers looking for a place to spend their hard earned money.