Why did the Secret Service anti sniper wait until the sniper fired to kill him? Needed permission?Rules of engagement? B

[cherokeepilot]

The assignments for the Trump detail were scrambled because of a sudden Jill Biden campaign event in Pennsylvania at the same time as the Trump event.

There was no counter sniper team assignment for the Trump event until the last minute. There was very little time to set up.

[PriestTheRunner]

Here is another video of the movement done in 3d animation. Shows where the bullet would have landed without the head movement.

Sorry for posting to reddit, but this videos well done. Also note, it's about 3/4 speed, hence the audio. That means at the trigger break, it was only off-center by about 1" at 150yrds.

Warning, language on forum name.

Link: video

[philip964]

I asked some guys in the security business, I respect, about why the counter sniper did not fire earlier. They said without question that he or she was waiting for authorization to fire.

They also said it was not a one in a million shot that the counter sniper made.

They also said something about a pooch.

I really didn't need anymore evidence than what they told me.

[Grayling813]

I asked some guys in the security business, I respect, about why the counter sniper did not fire earlier. They said without question that he or she was waiting for authorization to fire.

They also said it was not a one in a million shot that the counter sniper made.

They also said something about a pooch.

I really didn't need anymore evidence than what they told me.

The SS director testified to Congress today that the snipers do not have to wait for authorization to take out a threat. Of course, she could be lying or be speaking on a subject she knows nothing about.

[Mike S]

I asked some guys in the security business, I respect, about why the counter sniper did not fire earlier. They said without question that he or she was waiting for authorization to fire.

They also said it was not a one in a million shot that the counter sniper made.

They also said something about a pooch.

I really didn't need anymore evidence than what they told me.

Respectfully, the guys you spoke to are incorrect. What the USSS, like any domestic counter-sniper team needs to have, according to Graham V Connor, is to be able to ID an actual lethal threat before taking the shot. If the snipers had observed the loonies rifle, that would have been all the justification they would need to smoke him. No "Green Light" is needed in the real world, unless that is a local protocol for some risk-averse departments.

Some stupid person low crawling on the reverse slope of a metal roof isn't a clearly articulated lethal threat to the protectee or others life. Obviously both the N & S ctr-sniper teams were made aware there was someone on the roof, because both teams repositioned to orient on him. What we dont know is what info was blasted out that the snipera were tracking; if they had a clear target description & knew dipstick had a rifle, then as soon as they had a shot I'd imagine they'd take it, even if they couldn't see the rifle but other LEOs had reported it would still pass the Grahm test & as soon as his head crested over the peak of the roof it would have (or should have) came apart.

One in a million shot is likely an overstatement; a better way of saying it would be "it was a low-percentage shot", & as a shooting forum we'll understand that means there was very little of the dude's head exposed for the sniper to aim at. ((I wasn't there & don't have anything other than what's been publicly discussed, and that's what I'm basing this on)). But, as a former sniper & instructor I can tell you it only takes seconds to pivot on your bipod or tripod & engage a head shot at 200 meters, IF you are already oriented very near to where the head is expected to pop up. We call them "Snap Engagements", or "Snaps". And it seems that within seconds of the loonie firing he was neutralized. So, this isn't likely on the snipers.

Now, whoever was responsible for the site plan & decided to NOT establish an off limits area around that building, and allowed civilians to congregate in that area, that should be a career ender.

There's a lot of info in the public domain already, and a metric poop ton more of people spouting off click bait. Let's be better than that on this forum.

[Grayling813]

I asked some guys in the security business, I respect, about why the counter sniper did not fire earlier. They said without question that he or she was waiting for authorization to fire.

They also said it was not a one in a million shot that the counter sniper made.

They also said something about a pooch.

I really didn't need anymore evidence than what they told me.

Respectfully, the guys you spoke to are incorrect. What the USSS, like any domestic counter-sniper team needs to have, according to Graham V Connor, is to be able to ID an actual lethal threat before taking the shot. If the snipers had observed the loonies rifle, that would have been all the justification they would need to smoke him. No "Green Light" is needed in the real world, unless that is a local protocol for some risk-averse departments.

Some stupid person low crawling on the reverse slope of a metal roof isn't a clearly articulated lethal threat to the protectee or others life. Obviously both the N & S ctr-sniper teams were made aware there was someone on the roof, because both teams repositioned to orient on him. What we dont know is what info was blasted out that the snipera were tracking; if they had a clear target description & knew dipstick had a rifle, then as soon as they had a shot I'd imagine they'd take it, even if they couldn't see the rifle but other LEOs had reported it would still pass the Grahm test & as soon as his head crested over the peak of the roof it would have (or should have) came apart.

One in a million shot is likely an overstatement; a better way of saying it would be "it was a low-percentage shot", & as a shooting forum we'll understand that means there was very little of the dude's head exposed for the sniper to aim at. ((I wasn't there & don't have anything other than what's been publicly discussed, and that's what I'm basing this on)). But, as a former sniper & instructor I can tell you it only takes seconds to pivot on your bipod or tripod & engage a head shot at 200 meters, IF you are already oriented very near to where the head is expected to pop up. We call them "Snap Engagements", or "Snaps". And it seems that within seconds of the loonie firing he was neutralized. So, this isn't likely on the snipers.

Now, whoever was responsible for the site plan & decided to NOT establish an off limits area around that building, and allowed civilians to congregate in that area, that should be a career ender.

There's a lot of info in the public domain already, and a metric poop ton more of people spouting off click bait. Let's be better than that on this forum.

Good stuff...thanks!

[philip964]

I asked some guys in the security business, I respect, about why the counter sniper did not fire earlier. They said without question that he or she was waiting for authorization to fire.

They also said it was not a one in a million shot that the counter sniper made.

They also said something about a pooch.

I really didn't need anymore evidence than what they told me.

Respectfully, the guys you spoke to are incorrect. What the USSS, like any domestic counter-sniper team needs to have, according to Graham V Connor, is to be able to ID an actual lethal threat before taking the shot. If the snipers had observed the loonies rifle, that would have been all the justification they would need to smoke him. No "Green Light" is needed in the real world, unless that is a local protocol for some risk-averse departments.

Some stupid person low crawling on the reverse slope of a metal roof isn't a clearly articulated lethal threat to the protectee or others life. Obviously both the N & S ctr-sniper teams were made aware there was someone on the roof, because both teams repositioned to orient on him. What we dont know is what info was blasted out that the snipera were tracking; if they had a clear target description & knew dipstick had a rifle, then as soon as they had a shot I'd imagine they'd take it, even if they couldn't see the rifle but other LEOs had reported it would still pass the Grahm test & as soon as his head crested over the peak of the roof it would have (or should have) came apart.

One in a million shot is likely an overstatement; a better way of saying it would be "it was a low-percentage shot", & as a shooting forum we'll understand that means there was very little of the dude's head exposed for the sniper to aim at. ((I wasn't there & don't have anything other than what's been publicly discussed, and that's what I'm basing this on)). But, as a former sniper & instructor I can tell you it only takes seconds to pivot on your bipod or tripod & engage a head shot at 200 meters, IF you are already oriented very near to where the head is expected to pop up. We call them "Snap Engagements", or "Snaps". And it seems that within seconds of the loonie firing he was neutralized. So, this isn't likely on the snipers.

Now, whoever was responsible for the site plan & decided to NOT establish an off limits area around that building, and allowed civilians to congregate in that area, that should be a career ender.

There's a lot of info in the public domain already, and a metric poop ton more of people spouting off click bait. Let's be better than that on this forum.

So a 4” dia bullseye at 150 yards is a low percentage shot.

Attachment suggests quite a delay in counter fire. Why?

[rtschl]

This apparently from Dan Bogino's podcast - former USSS agent on his podcast as reported on X by Reeve Swainston,Esq. I have not listened to it and it's live now so cannot confirm, but makes sense if true:

BREAKING: @dbongino just reported the reason the CST didn’t engage Crooks immediately is bc they were confused about WHO was on the roof, since there WAS supposed to be a local (meaning not SS) CST on THAT roof.

They did not engage until they saw the muzzle flash of Crook’s rifle, which means the hesitation that got #Trump shot and resulted in the injury and death of others, was due to an “apocalyptic communication failure” by the SS.

Bongino is so well sourced he’s freakin’ breaking news a week before the useless MSM reports it (if they do).

https://x.com/ReeveSwainston/status/1815768981548216565

[Rafe]

So a 4” dia bullseye at 150 yards is a low percentage shot.

Attachment suggests quite a delay in counter fire. Why?

Google ain't helpin' me find any specifics, but if I recall correctly, while Crooks was about 150 yards from Trump the distance from the successful counter-sniper to Crooks was a bit over double that, more on the order of 350-400 yards. If that's the case, then I'd say that a single-shot kill under kinetic conditions with only a portion of the head visible would qualify as a difficult shot.

Me, I can shoot single ragged holes in a target all day long. At a distance of about 3 feet...

[philip964]

So a 4” dia bullseye at 150 yards is a low percentage shot.

Attachment suggests quite a delay in counter fire. Why?

Google ain't helpin' me find any specifics, but if I recall correctly, while Crooks was about 150 yards from Trump the distance from the successful counter-sniper to Crooks was a bit over double that, more on the order of 350-400 yards. If that's the case, then I'd say that a single-shot kill under kinetic conditions with only a portion of the head visible would qualify as a difficult shot.

Me, I can shoot single ragged holes in a target all day long. At a distance of about 3 feet...

Didn’t think about that. Yes it could have been much longer. The tripod guys supposedly were not the ones with the kill. Another counter sniper made the shot, so I have read. His or her position has not been identified.

And yes confusion over friend or foe could have delayed the shot. However, wouldn’t a fellow counter sniper be exposed to provide visual deterrence like the tripod guys. Not hidden.

[Mike S]

I asked some guys in the security business, I respect, about why the counter sniper did not fire earlier. They said without question that he or she was waiting for authorization to fire.

They also said it was not a one in a million shot that the counter sniper made.

They also said something about a pooch.

I really didn't need anymore evidence than what they told me.

Respectfully, the guys you spoke to are incorrect. What the USSS, like any domestic counter-sniper team needs to have, according to Graham V Connor, is to be able to ID an actual lethal threat before taking the shot. If the snipers had observed the loonies rifle, that would have been all the justification they would need to smoke him. No "Green Light" is needed in the real world, unless that is a local protocol for some risk-averse departments.

Some stupid person low crawling on the reverse slope of a metal roof isn't a clearly articulated lethal threat to the protectee or others life. Obviously both the N & S ctr-sniper teams were made aware there was someone on the roof, because both teams repositioned to orient on him. What we dont know is what info was blasted out that the snipera were tracking; if they had a clear target description & knew dipstick had a rifle, then as soon as they had a shot I'd imagine they'd take it, even if they couldn't see the rifle but other LEOs had reported it would still pass the Grahm test & as soon as his head crested over the peak of the roof it would have (or should have) came apart.

One in a million shot is likely an overstatement; a better way of saying it would be "it was a low-percentage shot", & as a shooting forum we'll understand that means there was very little of the dude's head exposed for the sniper to aim at. ((I wasn't there & don't have anything other than what's been publicly discussed, and that's what I'm basing this on)). But, as a former sniper & instructor I can tell you it only takes seconds to pivot on your bipod or tripod & engage a head shot at 200 meters, IF you are already oriented very near to where the head is expected to pop up. We call them "Snap Engagements", or "Snaps". And it seems that within seconds of the loonie firing he was neutralized. So, this isn't likely on the snipers.

Now, whoever was responsible for the site plan & decided to NOT establish an off limits area around that building, and allowed civilians to congregate in that area, that should be a career ender.

There's a lot of info in the public domain already, and a metric poop ton more of people spouting off click bait. Let's be better than that on this forum.

So a 4” dia bullseye at 150 yards is a low percentage shot.

Attachment suggests quite a delay in counter fire. Why?

Yes, a partially visible head at that distance is a low-percengage target.

Secondly, I'd recommend blocking anything from the "HealthRanger" guy. I'd never heard of him, so I looked him up. He seems to be a well known shyster peddling mis- & disinformation.

Listen to any video footage of the actual shooting & count the seconds from 1st shot to the 9th shot (9th shot being the suppressed rifle shot of the ctr sniper on the southern position). My uncalibrated brain came up with about 6 or 7 seconds from 1st shot at Trump to neutralized threat (counting in my head one-thousand; two-thousand; etc).

Then, compare that to the screenshot you posted of his "digital analysis".

You will note that his timeline begins with the sound spike of the 1st shot already at the 5 second mark, and the 9th sound spike of the counter snipers shot being just after the 10.2 second mark (im thinking the smaller audio spike of the sniper's shot is because the rifle was suppressed, and because of the distance from the camera that recorded the events unfolding). That's only 5.2'ish seconds from 1st shot to the sniper taking his shot.

In the body of his post he asserts that "there was another 10+ second gap" between the shooters 8th shot & the sniper taking his shot. But, his own screenshot shows the entire live fire event was over in about 5 seconds.

He also stated emphatically that the sniper should have used suppressive fire to disrupt the shooter in the 3 second delay from the initial volley & the final 5 shots. Suppressive fire isnt appropriate for this setting, and it's WAY different than delivering precision fire to shut down the threat. And suppressive fire when other LEOs are (or we're supposed to be...) inside the target building? Suppressive fire when there's non-threat civilians downrange? Again, this is rubbish. And he ends his post with the implication that perhaps the counter sniper delayed his response on purpose...

I've never heard of "HealthRanger" before , and based on this one example I'd critically question anything else he says.

[Rafe]

He also stated emphatically that the sniper should have used suppressive fire to disrupt the shooter in the 3 second delay from the initial volley & the final 5 shots. Suppressive fire isnt appropriate for this setting, and it's WAY different than delivering precision fire to shut down the threat. And suppressive fire when other LEOs are (or we're supposed to be...) inside the target building? Suppressive fire when there's non-threat civilians downrange? Again, this is rubbish. And he ends his post with the implication that perhaps the counter sniper delayed his response on purpose...

I've never heard of "HealthRanger" before, and based on this one example I'd critically question anything else he says.

Where's the dang "like" button?

[philip964]

https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/article290390354.html

California newspaper in Sacramento says the reason the counter snipers did not fire first was to prevent Crooks from becoming another right wing martyr like Ashley Babbit.

Yes this is what the article is about, the headline would have been “Feds murder Trump supporter”.

They seem to believe that they could have taken out the sniper but choose not to.