Furious! Elderly FW woman attacked at WM

[VMI77]

It's a shame so many people have the me, myself and mine attitude. This video illustrates just how poorly that selfish cowardly attitude reflects on society.

It may be fear.

It also may be a reflection on an overly litigious society.
WalMart has fired how many employees for intervening and stopping criminal activities to date?

And, no offense, our CHL instructor taught us specifically NOT to get involved. He had a great video of what looked like a kidnapping happening in broad daylight, it turned out to be parents taking control of their 17 year old teen...

Darned if you do, darned if you dont... There are great stories of people getting involved and shutting down situations, but you've got to be very careful...

Those are some of the factors, but there are some others to consider as well. I think uncertainty is a bigger factor than fear, but here are some others.....For one, location. This was in a large urban area...I think intervention is much more likely in small town America. Two, parking lots are the most dangerous places in America for the average person, and especially for women, and especially in large urban areas. The further away you park from the entrance the greater the likelihood you can be isolated and attacked, and the thugs can get away more easily. Three, this was over pretty fast, so there wasn't a lot of time to process what was happening and react. Four, for decades now, Americans have been trained by the educational system and the media to be docile, obedient, passive observers, and rely on others, "trained professionals," for protection (and the only "trained professionals" can do something attitude carries over to just about everything else now too). That, I think, is one of the reasons the urban environment is worse....people in rural areas tend to be more self-sufficient and take care of themselves...partly because they have to.

[VMI77]

I was raised not to hit a "Lady" the female attacker was not a lady and if wanted to take on a man then she should be treated like a man. I am sure some will blast me for this opinion but that is the cold hard facts of the world today, we are not in the dark ages anymore women can be as much of a threat as a man.

No no no, I'll blast you for being too nice. After all, haven't the feminists told us that women are equal or superior to men, and that women need men like a fish needs a bicycle? It would be sexist not to strike back at a woman attacker as you would a man, and discriminatory. You don't want to be a bigoted sexist do you? I sure don't.

[VMI77]

Don't knock your ability that 73 yo woman put up a good fight.

Yeah, I'd have tried, or at least I like to think I'd have instinctively charged-with-intent-to-separate-them, but if the stocky bitch had taken me down, well, hopefully the old lady would have had her purse and gotten safely into her car by then.

I sometimes carry w/Gunderwear which means you almost gotta drop your shorts to get at the gun. A "last resort" sorta carry option cuz really quick-draw is not possible.

Come on guys, give yourselves more credit. Thugs like that don't know how to fight. With a little training you can put one like that down with one blow. Don't charge to separate, charge to end the assault immediately by disabling the attacker.

BTW, don't forget about the thug driving the car.....that thug may have been armed.

[CHLLady]

I was raised not to hit a "Lady" the female attacker was not a lady and if wanted to take on a man then she should be treated like a man. I am sure some will blast me for this opinion but that is the cold hard facts of the world today, we are not in the dark ages anymore women can be as much of a threat as a man.

No no no, I'll blast you for being too nice. After all, haven't the feminists told us that women are equal or superior to men, and that women need men like a fish needs a bicycle? It would be sexist not to strike back at a woman attacker as you would a man, and discriminatory. You don't want to be a bigoted sexist do you? I sure don't.

I agree with you to a point. If she's punching you with a closed fist like a man, I'm all for equal force. If she's slapping, I can hardly see a face punch knocking her out or breaking her jaw as equal force. Subdue with equal force, if at all possible. This is the karate philosophy my kids have learned and I agree with it 100%.

Many of you raise an excellent point about becoming involved as a person of opposite race and or gender. Sad fact that if there's not a video to represent facts clearly, I can see it easily becoming a case of persuasion and who has the better attorney, a la OJ Simpson.

[suthdj]

I was raised not to hit a "Lady" the female attacker was not a lady and if wanted to take on a man then she should be treated like a man. I am sure some will blast me for this opinion but that is the cold hard facts of the world today, we are not in the dark ages anymore women can be as much of a threat as a man.

No no no, I'll blast you for being too nice. After all, haven't the feminists told us that women are equal or superior to men, and that women need men like a fish needs a bicycle? It would be sexist not to strike back at a woman attacker as you would a man, and discriminatory. You don't want to be a bigoted sexist do you? I sure don't.

I agree with you to a point. If she's punching you with a closed fist like a man, I'm all for equal force. If she's slapping, I can hardly see a face punch knocking her out or breaking her jaw as equal force. Subdue with equal force, if at all possible. This is the karate philosophy my kids have learned and I agree with it 100%.

Many of you raise an excellent point about becoming involved as a person of opposite race and or gender. Sad fact that if there's not a video to represent facts clearly, I can see it easily becoming a case of persuasion and who has the better attorney, a la OJ Simpson.

Very good point an agree.

[VMI77]

I was raised not to hit a "Lady" the female attacker was not a lady and if wanted to take on a man then she should be treated like a man. I am sure some will blast me for this opinion but that is the cold hard facts of the world today, we are not in the dark ages anymore women can be as much of a threat as a man.

No no no, I'll blast you for being too nice. After all, haven't the feminists told us that women are equal or superior to men, and that women need men like a fish needs a bicycle? It would be sexist not to strike back at a woman attacker as you would a man, and discriminatory. You don't want to be a bigoted sexist do you? I sure don't.

I agree with you to a point. If she's punching you with a closed fist like a man, I'm all for equal force. If she's slapping, I can hardly see a face punch knocking her out or breaking her jaw as equal force. Subdue with equal force, if at all possible. This is the karate philosophy my kids have learned and I agree with it 100%.

Many of you raise an excellent point about becoming involved as a person of opposite race and or gender. Sad fact that if there's not a video to represent facts clearly, I can see it easily becoming a case of persuasion and who has the better attorney, a la OJ Simpson.

Yes, I agree. Just as I would a man, if she pushed me, I'd push back. If she kicked me I'd kick back. If she slapped me I'd slap back. And if she slugged me I'd slug her back. I would not immediately go for a knockout punch with a man either, unless it was obvious he intended to attack more viciously. In fact, I might not even return just a push, but just issue a warning hoping to de-escalate. A second push after that though, I don't know, it would depend on the specific situation and my perception of intent whether I pushed back or hit back. I think most women that are the type to hit a man figure that because they're a woman and men are trained not to hit women, there won't be a push back and they can get away with it (and with me they'd be wrong....only my wife and perhaps a few other women I know can hit me without a push back)....otherwise, short of a few crazies, they wouldn't do it. And for those that aren't crazy, a like response by the man usually shocks them into reality......this ain't their grandpa's world anymore. Feminism killed chivalry except for some holdouts in small-town America and a few places in the Confederacy.

I will qualify this though by saying that there may be some situations where equal force may get you seriously injured or killed....for instance, when there are more than one potential attacker, and rapidly taking down the first one may help deter the others. Or it's obvious from the start it's going to be a fight for your life.

[RoyGBiv]

If she's punching you with a closed fist like a man, I'm all for equal force. If she's slapping, I can hardly see a face punch knocking her out or breaking her jaw as equal force. Subdue with equal force, if at all possible. This is the karate philosophy my kids have learned and I agree with it 100%.

if someone is committing assault against me, by slapping or with a closed fist, I'll deal with it in whatever way ends the assault with the least amount of additional danger to me.

if it's a woman slapping me with an open hand after she tried to steal my wallet, I don't intend to take on added risk by using less force than needed to end the assault expeditiously. First she's slapping, next she's reaching into her back pocket for a straight razor. I refuse to wait for that razor because of some politically correct moral code.

You're welcome to think there's some moral high ground in fighting back with "equal force", but I consider assault a potentially life-ending event. If you start a physical confrontation with the intent to assault or rob me, you have given up any moral standing you have to be treated like anything other than a criminal and an immediate threat to my physical safety.

Karate philosophy is for dealing with bullies in school. Not for responding to being feloniously assaulted.

IMO, YMMV, EIEIO

[VMI77]

If she's punching you with a closed fist like a man, I'm all for equal force. If she's slapping, I can hardly see a face punch knocking her out or breaking her jaw as equal force. Subdue with equal force, if at all possible. This is the karate philosophy my kids have learned and I agree with it 100%.

if someone is committing assault against me, by slapping or with a closed fist, I'll deal with it in whatever way ends the assault with the least amount of additional danger to me.

if it's a woman slapping me with an open hand after she tried to steal my wallet, I don't intend to take on added risk by using less force than needed to end the assault expeditiously. First she's slapping, next she's reaching into her back pocket for a straight razor. I refuse to wait for that razor because of some politically correct moral code.

You're welcome to think there's some moral high ground in fighting back with "equal force", but I consider assault a potentially life-ending event. If you start a physical confrontation with the intent to assault or rob me, you have given up any moral standing you have to be treated like anything other than a criminal and an immediate threat to my physical safety.

Karate philosophy is for dealing with bullies in school. Not for responding to being feloniously assaulted.

IMO, YMMV, EIEIO

I agree, and should have qualified my remarks better. I was addressing more of a situation where someone pushes you in the store because you're in their way, or a woman slaps you in some heated argument. In a robbery or some other criminal act, you use all the force at your disposal to end the assault quickly and in your favor. In a criminal assault the equal force notion sounds like the old "don't sink to their level" nonsense to rationalize not defending yourself. It's the philosophy in places like the UK where self-defense is prohibited...and if someone uses their fists, you're supposed to use your fists, and a knife, you can't use more than a knife, or if a baseball bat, a bat...etc. I think shock and awe (within the law) is a better strategy against criminals and thugs.

[MechAg94]

I don't work out or train much at all. I am not likely to fight easily. However, if pushed to fight, I see no reason to hold back until the fight is over.

That said, in this case, if it was just a purse snatch, there would be a lot of people out to hang you if you pulled and used a gun to defend the old lady. IMO, it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

[VMI77]

I don't work out or train much at all. I am not likely to fight easily. However, if pushed to fight, I see no reason to hold back until the fight is over.

That said, in this case, if it was just a purse snatch, there would be a lot of people out to hang you if you pulled and used a gun to defend the old lady. IMO, it shouldn't be that way, but it is.

Actually, someone did just that recently and was hailed as hero. Same set up, purse snatcher jumped out of a car, snatched a purse, CHL guy drew gun, held them for police. Granted, he didn't shoot anyone. I don't recommend it myself but....... The other thing here to me is that you don't know if the person in the car is armed or not, so intervention is not risk free even if you're a SEAL.

[mojo84]

It's very important to fight fair and make sure it ends in a draw. Afterward, everyone gets a participation ribbon and a snack.



[For those less astute folks, that was sarcasm]

[TomsTXCHL]

Don't knock your ability that 73 yo woman put up a good fight.

Yeah, I'd have tried, or at least I like to think I'd have instinctively charged-with-intent-to-separate-them, but if the stocky bitch had taken me down, well, hopefully the old lady would have had her purse and gotten safely into her car by then.

I sometimes carry w/Gunderwear which means you almost gotta drop your shorts to get at the gun. A "last resort" sorta carry option cuz really quick-draw is not possible.

Come on guys, give yourselves more credit. Thugs like that don't know how to fight. With a little training you can put one like that down with one blow. Don't charge to separate, charge to end the assault immediately by disabling the attacker.

BTW, don't forget about the thug driving the car.....that thug may have been armed.

I was putting myself in the shoes of the guy in the foreground (who backed-away rapidly) and I'm quite sure I would at least have yelled-and-charged as I said, just instinctively, and would likely NOT have thought about the thug driving her around the lot (and whisking her away after the snatch).

Another reason I hang-around here; to learn this stuff, though you'd think I'd have learned it already from that recent good guy getting shot in Nevada by the (unbeknownst to the GG) accomplice...the one where the LEOs were murdered in the restaurant.

[Jumping Frog]

I agree with you to a point. If she's punching you with a closed fist like a man, I'm all for equal force. If she's slapping, I can hardly see a face punch knocking her out or breaking her jaw as equal force. Subdue with equal force, if at all possible. This is the karate philosophy my kids have learned and I agree with it 100%.

With respect, I believe that is a naive philosophy. When dealing with predators, making it a "fair fight" is a poor recipe for disaster. Your kids deserve to have their mom come home unharmed. I consider a "fair fight" or "equal force" to mean I failed to properly address the situation.

I would have been perfectly fine using pepper spray on the attacker, but doubt pulling a weapon would have been justified unless she further escalated the attack.

I respectfully suggest you spend some time learning TPC §9.31, §9.32, and §9.33.

Robbery is one of the six enumerated crimes where deadly force is not only justified, but it is also "presumed to be reasonable".

Walking up, pulling out your gun, and popping that robber in the head without any warning is 100% justified under Texas law.

Every CHL should have the six enumerated crimes memorized: aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

[jocat54]

Just had to add-----there is no such thing as a fair fight.

If you assault me (hitting, kicking, slapping biting, ect. ) then I will use all the force I can muster up to end it quickly (hopefully). It may even include drawing my weapon. I am way to old to take a whipping. I am thankful I can still get out of bed in the mornings and hopefully will do so for a while yet.

[rotor]

Did you all watch the video? The car was being driven by an accomplice so this was not just one bad guy but two or possibly more. This all happened very fast. You run up to help the old lady ( she is about my age too) and someone comes out of the car and shoots you. Who knows? I understand what you are all saying and think that this is a dastardly attack ( which is why I carry) but I am not going to get shot to save a womans purse. Someone attacks me directly and I draw my weapon. I don't consider myself a coward but I would not want to take a bullet to save a seniors purse, phone and baby pictures. The problem of course is that these decisions have to be made fast. If the cops can read my license plate and tell if I run a red light with their cameras can't WM do a better job in their parking lot? This should have been an easy police find the bad guy situation.