CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

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Excaliber
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#31

Post by Excaliber »

knotquiteawake wrote:Now, normally I am generally ok with a consensual search because I want the officer to feel at ease and I have nothing to hide nor do my passengers. However, I'm pretty sure this would tick me off enough to tell the officer they can go ahead and pound sand when they want to search my car as part of a search where the only criteria was being stopped at a traffic light. Sorry, you've got to do better than that to get me to suspend my rights. Maybe if my car matched a description (color, make, model, year, etc) then I would understand. But a blanket search like this is unreasonable. If I were that last person to be search (TWO HOURS LATER!) I would certainly be considering a lawsuit.

Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection in Search for Bank Robber
“Most of the adults were handcuffed, then were told what was going on and were asked for permission to search the car,” Fania said. “They all granted permission, and once nothing was found in their cars, they were un-handcuffed.”
The search lasted between an hour and a half and two hours, and it wasn’t until the final car was searched that police apprehended the suspect.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... nk-robber/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If the information we have so far is correct and reasonably complete, this was, to put it kindly, very poor police work.

From my understanding, the "credible tip" (if there was one) consisted of information that the bandit was stopped at a particular intersection at that very moment, and the police did not have a description. There is urgency and a valid public safety interest in investigating that in an attempt to keep an armed violent criminal from getting back out into the community.

Under those circumstances I can see keeping the traffic stopped for the few minutes it would take to contact an officer at the bank and find out a basic description of the bandit in question, then look at the people in the cars and let go any who didn't match the description, while investigating further those who were a reasonable match.

Unless everybody there looked an awful lot like the bandit, that should have narrowed things down in a hurry with minimal inconvenience and no handcuffing of people who clearly weren't suspects.

Taking everyone, regardless of suspect description match, out of every car at gunpoint and detaining them for hours is, in my opinion, wildly unlawful and should be addressed with scores of massive civil lawsuits and disciplinary action sufficient to give other officers pause before committing similar acts.

A chief who thought this was a good idea too should be involuntarily encouraged to find another line of work where adherence to the Constitution isn't a job requirement.
Excaliber

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Texas Dan Mosby
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#32

Post by Texas Dan Mosby »

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
That about sums it up imo....
88 day wait for the state to approve my constitutional right to bear arms...
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olafpfj
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#33

Post by olafpfj »

Sometimes the criminal gets away with it...and I am OK with that. It's a price I accept to be in the "land of the free".
Maybe we can truly be that again someday.
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johncanfield
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#34

Post by johncanfield »

Excaliber wrote:...A chief who thought this was a good idea too should be involuntarily encouraged to find another line of work where adherence to the Constitution isn't a job requirement.
There you go :thumbs2: ...
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#35

Post by stealthfightrf17 »

Generally, I am not opposed in many situations being searched. Several years ago, I was stop by CHP because I pulled over where road constroction equipment was being stored while fixing the roads. There was a lot of theft happening there. He asked if he could search, and I had no issue with that, he then stated I was ok to leave, never searched. His request raised a resonable explenation of why to me. How ever in this situation, I would have told them to bug off and if they cuffed me and searched anyway, I would go after them till I could go no higher, and was able to retire

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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#36

Post by Wienerdogtroy »

Purplehood wrote:I am confused. Why do so many members of our forum object to this Police-action yet appear to support the Patriot Act?
Don't assume we support the so called Patriot Act either.
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#37

Post by jimlongley »

Reminds me an awful lot of the Open Carry stop in ME, just carried to the next logical level.
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speedsix
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#38

Post by speedsix »

Wienerdogtroy wrote:
Purplehood wrote:I am confused. Why do so many members of our forum object to this Police-action yet appear to support the Patriot Act?
Don't assume we support the so called Patriot Act either.


...for sure!!! that put my ears back, too...where'd you get that idea??? Maybe it "sounded good" when it began, but the more you know it, the less you like about it...
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#39

Post by olafpfj »

speedsix wrote:
Wienerdogtroy wrote:
Purplehood wrote:I am confused. Why do so many members of our forum object to this Police-action yet appear to support the Patriot Act?
Don't assume we support the so called Patriot Act either.


...for sure!!! that put my ears back, too...where'd you get that idea??? Maybe it "sounded good" when it began, but the more you know it, the less you like about it...
Vehemently opposed to the patriot act!!!! Makes my skin crawl starting with the TITLE!!!!!
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#40

Post by The Annoyed Man »

gigag04 wrote:I think this is a loose-loose scenario for LE. Do what it takes to catch a bad guy, and run the risk of crossing the line.

Let him go, and you'll get accused of being lazy, corrupt, or incapable.

I think they missed it here, but I'm definitely not claiming to have the answer, especially in the heat of the moment.

Hopefully it's a learning point for all involved and a better, more thought out response can be called upon in the future.
Thanks for the response. This is the type of response I was hoping for from you. I agree that it is a lose/lose situation for the individual officer for the reasons you've stated. But that said, I think that these are the types of events that must force any conscientious agency to self-examine—not to see how far they can push and still be within some strained near to breaking definition of the law, but rather to see if they are still in compliance with the fundamental tenets of the Constitution which they take an oath to uphold. The former makes their jobs easier because their standards are lowered.....with the corollary that their convictions go down and the municipalities pay out more in damages. The latter makes them more effective. I say "effective" because the latter is what inspires trust within and cooperation from the communities in which they work. That increased trust and cooperation will ultimately lead to more arrests of criminals, and more charges that stick, and ultimately to reduced crime and to safer streets. Those are the yardstick by which a police agency's success is measured.
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speedsix
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#41

Post by speedsix »

...like some politicians, some law enforcement takes the power that we give them to serve us and uses it to oppress us...our legal system has remedies for that...glad to say it's relatively few LEOs that operate that way...and I've seen far less of that attitude in Texas LEOs than anywhere else I've been...

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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#42

Post by stealthfightrf17 »

speedsix wrote:...like some politicians, some law enforcement takes the power that we give them to serve us and uses it to oppress us...our legal system has remedies for that...glad to say it's relatively few LEOs that operate that way...and I've seen far less of that attitude in Texas LEOs than anywhere else I've been...
Most LEO I know in california always act as though there is something to prove. Most of them are nice people outside the badge. Once the badge is on their attitude towards people changes. I don't see that here in Texas. Don't know many personally here, but every one I have come across has always been respectful of people.
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#43

Post by RoyGBiv »

I've been operating under the assumption that some sort of GPS device was tossed into the money bag together with the cash and dye packs and that's how they "knew" the location of the BG without a description. This is just a guess.

If this (or some similar hard fact) is true, and LE "knows" with reasonable certainty that at minimum the money bag is at that location, I'll bet that a court would find that to be sufficient PC to throw a net over the location, lock it down and sort it out. Similar to using a road block to stop every car and peer inside, except more specific.

I'm not agreeing or supporting the tactic, just thinking through a possible scenario.

Now looking at my personal response should I be pulled from my car and "detained". What choice do I have at the scene? The Cops are in control. Resisting with physical force of any kind is just stupid. An escalation that would almost certainly lead to other (legit) charges. So now I'm in cuffs. I politely, calmly, firmly, clearly and repeatedly refuse to allow the search. I offer to sit on the curb while they go get a warrant. I'm steaming mad, but remain cooperative.

My only recourse comes after... in court should I have a case. Or in the court of public opinion.

Just my $0.02
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#44

Post by mamabearCali »

I can see stopping the cars in an intersection until you get a better description of the perp (say 10 min or so). But pulling everyone out, arresting them, detaining them for two hours, and searching their cars without so much as a sniff of probable cause. That is unacceptable. I could see this happening in China or even Mexico, but here. Unreal and illegal. What would they have done if a law abiding citizen had told them to go pound sand on the search of the car and they were not talking to the police while they were in cuffs?
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speedsix
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Re: CO -Police Stop, Handcuff Every Adult at Intersection

#45

Post by speedsix »

RoyGBiv wrote:I've been operating under the assumption that some sort of GPS device was tossed into the money bag together with the cash and dye packs and that's how they "knew" the location of the BG without a description. This is just a guess.

If this (or some similar hard fact) is true, and LE "knows" with reasonable certainty that at minimum the money bag is at that location, I'll bet that a court would find that to be sufficient PC to throw a net over the location, lock it down and sort it out. Similar to using a road block to stop every car and peer inside, except more specific.

I'm not agreeing or supporting the tactic, just thinking through a possible scenario.

Now looking at my personal response should I be pulled from my car and "detained". What choice do I have at the scene? The Cops are in control. Resisting with physical force of any kind is just stupid. An escalation that would almost certainly lead to other (legit) charges. So now I'm in cuffs. I politely, calmly, firmly, clearly and repeatedly refuse to allow the search. I offer to sit on the curb while they go get a warrant. I'm steaming mad, but remain cooperative.

My only recourse comes after... in court should I have a case. Or in the court of public opinion.

Just my $0.02


...it was a Detective on my PD and another man in LEO who invented and perfected the old 3-antenna trackers that they put in the money pack...I've worked robberies with them...we tracked on our car unit to the house...took the hand-held unit, and tracked it to a clothing bag in the boy's closet...it took 40 seconds...not 2 hours...I doubt they had a tracker/GPS device...( with a dye pack, all they would have had to do is walk by the cars)...even if so, they could have moved the cars off one by one and watched the blip...no excuse for what they did...
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