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In Cleveland, Ohio, Thursday, four men allegedly committed an armed robbery. The victim seized a gun (presumably a handgun, but I don't know) from one of the robbers and fatally shot the robber. The deceased robber had recently been released from prison on parole for robbery.

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Reading between the lines, I don't think this incident occurred in a high-rent district.

- Jim

regardless where this happened, form this incident, one has to learn to unload onto 4 robbers at the same time.
For 1911 lovers, hope your single stack will serve you well with no misses. XDM owners light them up!

I am conscious of magazine capacity, but we have to distinguish between thugs and crazed ninja assassins. Thugs run when the odds turn against them. I think the operative term in acceptable language is, "Oh, poop."

I also expect the victim will be doing whatever one has to do in Ohio to get whatever they call the equivalent of a CHL.

- Jim

Beiruty wrote:regardless where this happened, form this incident, one has to learn to unload onto 4 robbers at the same time.
For 1911 lovers, hope your single stack will serve you well with no misses. XDM owners light them up!

The single stack in the gun and the two spare 8 round single stacks in the mag holder should do quite nicely with enough left over to accommodate the BGs' friends if they decide to join in.

Four assailants, 8 rounds. Its not hard to do the math on that. One for each with spares just in case.

Beiruty wrote:regardless where this happened, form this incident, one has to learn to unload onto 4 robbers at the same time.
For 1911 lovers, hope your single stack will serve you well with no misses. XDM owners light them up!

Let's see... 4 bad guys.... 9 rounds (8+1) of .45 ACP = 2 rounds of .45 per bad guy with one left over in the pipe while you reload...

...I think that will be enough — assuming that they are brave enough to stick around and shoot it out, and didn't turn coward and run away.

This was not any kind of tactical situation. It was a hand-to-hand struggle that ended up with the robber shot. It could easily have gone the other way.

I don't know and have no way of knowing if the victim who turned the tables had ever fired a gun before. He just seemed to know that he needed to resist or possibly be killed.

Which gives me an opportunity to repeat the principle that one should do anything possible to avoid being taken captive or hostage. It rarely ends well, and the experience of being captive for hours or perhaps days, tied up, beaten, and almost certain raped in the case of women is extremely traumatic.

- Jim

This is one of those stories where you need to think "What could I have done" he was unarmed and did not have a choice of weapons single stack or double, we are not, so would you draw, run and draw, allow them to get control of your weapon etc.... It makes me wonder what can you do when they have the drop on you and your weapon is covered under a shirt. I see best option as taking a zig zag flight while drawing and seeking cover maybe even pop off a couple rounds into the ground while running away to draw attention. So WWYD?

suthdj wrote:This is one of those stories where you need to think "What could I have done" he was unarmed and did not have a choice of weapons single stack or double, we are not, so would you draw, run and draw, allow them to get control of your weapon etc.... It makes me wonder what can you do when they have the drop on you and your weapon is covered under a shirt. I see best option as taking a zig zag flight while drawing and seeking cover maybe even pop off a couple rounds into the ground while running away to draw attention. So WWYD?

You may want to rethink this.

If the tactical situation is such that you can't even reach for your holstered gun, it's unlikely that running away would be an available option.

Making noise at that point is less likely to get you help than to get you shot. However, if you think that would help, you'd be better off carrying a whistle for that purpose rather than using a firearm to recklessly fire perfectly good defensive ammunition into the ground, thereby making certain it won't hurt a threatening felon and potentially endangering others nearby with ricochets.

I can assure you that the BG's you're confronted with won't be amused, and they won't be firing their rounds into the ground either.

The gentleman in the OP who found himself in this situation did rather well. He picked his moment, counterattacked with what he had at hand, and followed through until the situation was resolved. My hat is off to him. He'd fit right in in Texas.

Action beats reaction.

Let us say you are carrying, draw and engage the 4 hooded robbers. Each got 2 rds center mass and all died on the scene. Only 1 robber was armed. Any exessive deadly force used, any crime committed by the defendant shooter?
My.vote is the chler is still in the clear and his actions are justified .

If the odds are four against one I'm not sure it matters if any of the criminals are armed.

If you get a chance, attend one of Mr. Cotton's deadly force talks.

This is an area where state law makes a huge difference.

In Texas we can use deadly force in response to robbery or kidnapping, which was the case here. The robbery need not be armed robbery. Only the threat of force by the robber is required. The kidnapping was an accomplished kidnapping, even though they were taking the victim to his own home.

Deadly force against all of the criminals would have been justified.

I don't know what Pennsylvania law says in this respect. In many states, deadly force is considered justified only in response to presentation or use of a deadly weapon.

- Jim

Excaliber wrote:

suthdj wrote:This is one of those stories where you need to think "What could I have done" he was unarmed and did not have a choice of weapons single stack or double, we are not, so would you draw, run and draw, allow them to get control of your weapon etc.... It makes me wonder what can you do when they have the drop on you and your weapon is covered under a shirt. I see best option as taking a zig zag flight while drawing and seeking cover maybe even pop off a couple rounds into the ground while running away to draw attention. So WWYD?

You may want to rethink this.

If the tactical situation is such that you can't even reach for your holstered gun, it's unlikely that running away would be an available option.

Making noise at that point is less likely to get you help than to get you shot. However, if you think that would help, you'd be better off carrying a whistle for that purpose rather than using a firearm to recklessly fire perfectly good defensive ammunition into the ground, thereby making certain it won't hurt a threatening felon and potentially endangering others nearby with ricochets.

I can assure you that the BG's you're confronted with won't be amused, and they won't be firing their rounds into the ground either.

The gentleman in the OP who found himself in this situation did rather well. He picked his moment, counterattacked with what he had at hand, and followed through until the situation was resolved. My hat is off to him. He'd fit right in in Texas.

Making noise(yes wasting a good round) will draw attention(bad guys don't like this), Ricochets yes did not think on that, that's because where i live is plenty of grassy area's. BG are opportunists and generally want any easy target not somebody they have to chase and or shoot at, to many other easy targets. Now if I did like the victim and let them strip me of my belonging(My weapon) then I would then have 2 weapons to worry about when the time came greatly reducing my odds. Yes the guy did the best he could with what he was presented with and my hat is off to him also.

snorri wrote:Action beats reaction.

So I have heard, I carry most of the time under a shirt so I don't think I could draw faster then it takes them to pull the trigger.