Requesting experiences and thoughts on Lasers

[57Coastie]

While there is reasonable debate about the value of a laser under various circumstances, in my case, and in that of the wife, the laser paid for itself in disclosing trigger control issues and training them away, both when dry firing and on the range. When that little dot moves away from the point of aim as the trigger is squeezed/pulled/jerked you are instantly made aware of a problem in your trigger control which may have eluded you using iron sights.

Similarly, I find it much easier to keep both eyes open when using a laser. (I have never been able to reliably shoot with both eyes open using iron sights).

It is a truism known to all of us that the human eye cannot focus at two distances at the same time, much less three -- for example, the rear sight, the front sight, and the target. With the rarest of exceptions then, using iron sights it is basic that we focus on the front sight. With a laser your eyes naturally focus at only one distance -- the distance to the red dot and the target -- both at precisely the same distance.

Lastly, you, like me, may find the laser to be a great assist in learning quick point-and-shoot, should you be interested in learning this skill.

All in all a laser is a tool which lends itself to some circumstances, but not all. Like any tool, it can be invaluable in some circumstances, and a hazard in others.

Jim

[The Annoyed Man]

I took my wife to the range last Saturday to try out her new 642 Crimson Trace for the first time. Both of us shot the pistol, and both of us tried laser on and laser off.

My wife was essentially re-learning to shoot, not having done it for 15 years. She found the laser distracting as just one more thing to think about, and did better with it off. I found it distracting because I tended to look for the dot instead of the proper sight picture, and I did better with it turned off.

That being said, it is worth trying again to see if it makes any difference. Also, it was a brand new pistol for both of us, and it required a little getting used to, so perhaps my laser on results would be better with more range time. However, I don't want to become dependent on the thing. All in all, I would say that it's an interesting gadget, but perhaps unnecessary.

[jc_conn]

I think a lot of folks get in a twist about lasers because they are thinking that lasers should replace their primary aiming device (e.g. sights); rather, lasers are most useful in augmenting or supplementing the pistol sights.

Also, when static or dynamic on the square range, the utility of lasers is zero-sum; however, imagine unorthodox or awkward firing positions that preclude a good firing grip or stance. For instance, trying to get a decent sight picture using conventional sight while laying on your back, or side, or perhaps while shooting around or over something. Assuredly, lasers are still purpose- and situation-specific but to outright discourage their use is short-sighted.

With all that said, I'm pretty cheap and the high cost of lasers keeps me away. I'd rather drop the coin on cases of ammo and good training; I think I get more usefulness from that rather more gadgets.

My first post -- feels good to step from the shadows.


Jeremy

[Charles L. Cotton]

Welcome to the TexasCHLforum Jeremy; glad to have you aboard.

Chas.

[jbirds1210]

Welcome Jeremy.


I do not see the real point in lasers.....it is hard enough to get folks to look at the front sight that is glowing a few inches from their nose. I am also guilty

Jason

[Vic303]

I think the greatest advantage is in real shooting situations--not punching holes in paper. Shooting, when you DON'T want or have time to extend your arms, lock up both hands around the grips in a solid shooting stance, focus on the sights & target, and smoothly pull the trigger. For when you hand is down by your hip (like you see in the old cops & robbers movies), keeping the weapon close to your body to prevent it being snatched. If you can't SEE your sights, the laser is perfect.

[TX Rancher]

I understand where you’re coming from Vic, but for me, when the “target� is so close I’m firing from a close retention position, I don’t have time, nor need to take the time to find the little red or green dot.

If I’m firing from retention, it’s because my opponent is within 3-4 feet of me…and most likely my left hand is in contact with them. Under that situation it’s pretty hard not to land hits COM.

Next time you’re out at the range give it a try. Walk up to the target and stop when it’s at arm’s reach or a little beyond. Draw and fire from a close retention (be sure to cant the weapon a little so it won't bind in your shirt). Use the pressure of the butt against your side to "index" the weapon. Until you’re comfortable with this technique practice by dry firing.

Once you switch to live rounds keep your weak hand pinned to your chest until you’re confident in your ability. Also, wear very good hearing protection. Since your head is either even with, or a little in front of the muzzle and only a couple of feet away, it gets very loud.

I think you’ll find it’s very easy to put metal on COM every time…all without a sighting aid.

Hey Jeremy, welcome to the forum. Nice post, well thought out and articulated. I look forward to reading more from you in the future

[dukalmighty]

I persoally think at the ranges we would normally engage a BG It's more imortant to learn good point and shoot skills,At night lasers show up better but can be washed out in daylight at extended ranges,one thing i do is if i'm shooting alone at the gun range i ill have the range guy turn off the lights where all i get is light coming thru the observation window giving me a low light shooting situation.I can't see my iron sighs and up to 10 yards I go from low ready to point and shoot,you also get the effects of muzzleflash which can affect your night vision in some dark scenarios.I also have a sig with night sights which i prefer over lasers.

[jc_conn]

Firing from close retention is always the end to a series of mistakes, in my opinion, allowing your opponent to close from gunfight distance to fistfight distance. Of course, sometimes it's all you've got and it's unavoidable. One thing I'd like to repeat, and I really can't take credit for it, is the mantra -- "He's not so close that I can't miss... he's so close that I better not miss." I'm not accusing anyone of thinking this way, but I have come across many folks that spend the majority of their time shooting sighted fire at distance only to find they really can't connect up-close. Of course, this comes from failing to understand the difference between simply shooting (standing up, arms out in a weaver/isoceles, maybe a little movement) and fighting (a combination of movement, offense, defense, tactics, equipment, mindset, and the will to prevail and survive).

I do have to say that the improvements in technology of the past few years, with regard to the shrinking size of laser units, is significant and now that we are starting to see some manufacturers like S&W and Kimber beginning to offer factory-made packages of weapon/laser, I think they will begin to take off in popularity and will see widespread adoption and use.

I find point-shooting techniques paradoxical, at best, because I am constantly using the sights on the weapon to reaffirm my body index. Of course, this begs the question of why not just use the sights to begin with? Of course, in competition and elsewhere, I've discovered that there are often times when, despite training and best intentions, I lose front-sight focus and revert back to the simple tactic of putting the weapon between myself and the (perceived) threat and pulling the trigger. 9/10 times it works all the time. :)

[mgood]

I've been thinking about a laser. I'm back and forth on the issue. I can use the sights just fine. I do think it would be a cool training tool for trigger control as mentioned. Why can I shoot such tight groups with a rifle but not with a pistol even at 10 yards? It's not just the short sight radius. I can line up the sights fine, breathe, let part of it out, and squeeeeze. But I suspect I might be pulling a little off target with the trigger finger. Dry firing at the door knob or light switch at home I don't see it. But I might be doing something when actually anticipating recoil. A laser might answer that question. But as others have stated, using the cost of the laser to instead purchase a case of ammo and some proffessional training might be at least as good a use of that money.

It is a truism known to all of us that the human eye cannot focus at two distances at the same time, much less three -- for example, the rear sight, the front sight, and the target. With the rarest of exceptions then, using iron sights it is basic that we focus on the front sight. With a laser your eyes naturally focus at only one distance -- the distance to the red dot and the target -- both at precisely the same distance.

This is an issue I've given some thought. We're taught to focus on the front sight. That's all fine and good when shooting at paper. But if someone is shooting at you or about to, the natural inclination is to focus your attention on that person. Even practicing at home, drawing on myself in the mirror, I look at the target (me). Looking at the front sight comes as an afterthought unless I really concentrate on doing just that. I'm practicing to do that. But I wonder if it would hold up in a real fight. A laser sight and your target are on the same plane. You don't have to force yourself, unnaturally, to take focus away from the threat.

I don't like telegraphing my position. I learned as a kid playing hide-and-seek games in the dark (at which I was very good ), that the guy with the flashlight loses most of the time. In my house, the darkness is my ally. I know where stuff is. In that situation, I'd have to be careful not to activate the laser until I had a target. Or just turn it completely off, in which case it would not do me any good if/when I do want to use it as a sight.

Say I get a .357 Mag snubbie with a Lasergrip. That bullet is capable of accurate fire over quite a distance. Even the short barrel is plenty to stabilize it. Bullets fired from short barrels are not inherently less accurate. It's just that the short sight radius is difficult to aim accurately and the lighter gun is difficult to hold really steady. A laser sight would make long-range shots possible, even from a snubbie. But what am I shooting at? Shooting a bad guy 40 yards off and running away from me would be hard to justify in court. So if we're talking about shooting game (why am I hunting with a snubbie anyway?), we're probably talking outdoors in daylight where it's going to be very difficult to see the laser dot at a distance.

So, I think lasers are cool. I'm just not 100% convinced of their practical use for me. That's me. That doesn't mean they won't be great for someone else.
The one that almost sells me on lasers is the looking at the front sight vs. looking at the target idea. But I still wonder if lasers are worth it.

[DoubleJ]

I've read how upon using a Laser Aimer device, police accuracy went up some 200+%.
Then I bought one for my 2" revolver.
I couldn't hardly hit the target COM, much less bull's eye a target. laser grip, trigger control, and now I can keep'em in the target circle every single time, shooting double action.

and having been that guy at the range wih the red dot bouncing all over the place, I can honestly say "So?" took me some practice to get better. sorry we aren't all born professional Jerry Miculeks. but after seeing that red dot dance, I became more cognizant of what was happening, and it helped all of my shooting, Double Action Revolver, DA/SA SemiAuto, and DAO StrikerFired.

yeah, it's fun to tease the cats, too. batteries last forever. when the beam gets a little smaller, and starts to fade some, guess what? you replace the batteries. you don't run around on half inflated tires, do you? I don't either!

if it's that distracting to shoot with it on, turn it off and fire a few sets. then turn it back on, keep your eyes on the target (not the sights), and try to keep the red dot in the center as you fire. the laser is straight, so no matter how you manipulate the gun, if it's centered on Point of Impact, it'll still hit PoI.

if you're clearing a house, doesn't the flashlight give away your position? oh, you mean you toggle it on and off? well, guess you could do that with the laser, too! shewt, lasermax's version is set on strobe, anyway, which would help in the ol' "Searching for the red dot" syndrome. Green lasers are supposed to be even easier to see!
my opinion, if you aim a gun at something, the red dot should be where you are pointing your hands, so IMO, it should be easy to find. unless they're wearing red...

[JJ99SS]

I have a TLR-2 on my Service XD-9 (nightstand gun). I shoot very accurately without it. After adding it I found the extra weight under the muzzle actually (for me) helped me keep the barrel down and back on target quicker when using sights. As for shooting with a laser, I just sighted it in at 10 to 15 feet and practiced quickly pointing and shooting rapidly w/o using sites it will hit the mark within 3-4 inches no problem. Turning it on quickly is easy and I'm sure there are a million sinarios, and we each know when we would/could use one and when we wouldn't/shouldn't use one. I sort of enjoy mine.

As for my GF that she can just laze the target and pull the trigger. It is simple and intuitive for her. I have told her that if alone in the apartment and you hear an intruder, get the gun and the cell phone off the nightstand, and cover the nearest entrance with the gun from a distance, then and call 911 and wait for assistance. She has 20 feet to make a decision to see who it is and shoot. She will not "clear" the apartment (if anyone is in it) and risk a close encounter seeing that she is 5'3 and 100 lbs. and can be overtaken quite easily. That plan works for us in a small apartment.

As for one on a carry weapon just not for me.

[thankGod]

I recently put a Lasermax in my Glock 19. I love it. It gives me options that I would not have without it. It's non-obtrusive, and easily turned on without having to take my eyes off of the target. Before anybody whales on me for that statement. My thought is that as I draw, and prior to bringing the sights to bear, my eyes are on the target, and not the sights.

As a side, it is also great for dry-fire practice.

[NAVY CHIEF]

Old thread yes, but different question:
If you have or have had lasers which color do/did you prefer? There is talk about green being seen farther down range. Any thoughts or truisms to this?

Opine away!

Hooyah!