Looking Down the Barrel

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mgood
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Looking Down the Barrel

#1

Post by mgood »

Mid nineties, before CHL, I was living in Garland. My room mate, John, and I were both from Denver City and were travelling home together for Christmas. We made a quick stop (as quick as Christmas crowds allow) at Town East Mall in Mesquite for some last minute shopping. Then we went down 635 to I-20 and headed West. My Smith & Wesson Shorty Forty was on the seat between us. I knew it was legal to have a handgun while travelling. We were travelling, by any definition you wanted to put on that. I (mistakenly) thought the handgun could not be concealed.

I was pulled over by the Fort Worth Police. As I'm easing to the shoulder, John asks me "what about the gun?" I tell him to just be cool, keep his hands away from it, and don't make any sudden moves. "We're legal. We're travelling," I say. When the officer came up to the window, he asked if we had been drinking. He said I weaved a little back there. (Maybe I was messing with the radio or the heater or something. I don't know. Maybe I did weave.) I told him no. He asked to see my license and insurence. I already had my drivers' license in my hand before he came up. My insurence card was in a folder attached to the sunvisor. I reached up and got it and turned to hand it to him and looked into the barrel of his pistol. :shock:

He asked me why I had a gun. I told him I was travelling and was under the impression it was legal to carry when travelling. He asked me to please step out of the vehicle. I got out and we walked back to the trunk of the car where I was instructed to place my hands while he patted me down. I kept saying that I'm travelling and it's legal. he asked where I was going, where I was coming from, and all that sort of information - several times. He said it's ok, he was going to check my license and all that and if nothing came up, I could go.

There was construction along that stretch of I-20. When I pulled over, the passenger side of my car was very close to a concrete barricade. While this officer and I are talking, I'm completely oblivious to his partner and my room mate, six feet away from me. So this part is second-hand what he told me after the fact. She (the partner) had squeezed between my car and the barricade and pointed her pistol at John. She told him to put his hands up and then told him to get out of the car. He was wearing a seatbelt. The seatbelt latch was inches from my pistol. When he reached for the seatbelt, she told him to put his hands up, which he did. The she told him to get out of the car and he reached for the seatbelt again. She told him to put his hands up . . . and on and on. This might have been funny if we didn't have guns aimed at us. (And we did chuckle about it later.) He tells her, through the rolled up window, "I'm going to take my seatbelt off," and points down to it. And she said, "Ok, but if you do anything stupid, I'll blow your head off!" :eek6 (I did not actually hear this. This is what John told me she said. But I have no reason to doubt it.)

So John gets out and there we both are with our hands on the trunk of my car. I remember seeing the female officer with my pistol. She had dropped the magazine and ejected the chambered round and was in the process of trying to force the extra round into the magazine. I told her, "That won't fit." And she gave me a look of complete incomprehension. The mag was full, it would not hold another round and this seemed to baffle her. Anyway, both officers go back to their car with my pistol and my DL and insurence card while John and I are standing out in the cold on the shoulder of I-20 with our hands on the trunk.

After a while, they come back, return my pistol and DL and insurence and tell me we're free to go. As I'm getting back in the car, I said that I thought the handgun could not be concealed to be legal under the travelling clause. His response was "Maybe it would be better if it was concealed - to avoid situations like this." That was it. We went home for Christmas.

--------------------------------------------------------
To make a long post longer, there was another situation, also involving John, less than two months before this.
We had just moved into an apartment in Garland. The bozo who lived there before us left the alarm set. When we moved in, the light was flashing, but no signal was going out because we had no phone. The apartment office couldn't turn it off, someone from the alarm company would have to do it. And they couldn't access it remotely because we had no phone. It was about a week before the phone company and alarm company could come by and connect us. They both came on the same day and just happened to be there at the same time.

I left John there with the technicians and I was going to the store. I step out of the apartment and start down the walk and there's a Garland Police Officer coming up the walk. He draws his pistol and points it at me. :shock:
I raised my hands and said, "You're here about the alarm, right?" (I had actually thought about this possibility before.) See, the alarm had been going off all week, but it wasn't really sending a signal anywhere until the phone was hooked up. When the telephone was connected, the monitoring station got the signal. They tried to call. No one answered because the phone guy was still messing with the phone. Police were dispatched. Nice to know the system works. I explained the deal to him, while I stood there with my hands in the air. I pointed out the telephone company van and the alarm company truck and said guys were inside working on it. He followed me in to verify this, spoke with the phone guy and the alarm guy and then left.


By the way, I had long bushy hair and probably looked like a hoodlum to the typical LEO at the time both of these events took place. :skep:

Target1911
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#2

Post by Target1911 »

Just out of curiosity.....do you really LIKE looking down the business end of a pistol??? :biggrinjester:
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mgood
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#3

Post by mgood »

Not particularly, no.
I understand their need for caution. But I do wish they'd keep their finger off the trigger until they really plan to shoot someone. In both of those cases, I remember looking and seeing fingers inside trigger guards. I didn't know whether to politely ask him to take his finger off the trigger or if that would just exacerbate the situation.

Liko81
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#4

Post by Liko81 »

mgood wrote:Not particularly, no.
I understand their need for caution. But I do wish they'd keep their finger off the trigger until they really plan to shoot someone. In both of those cases, I remember looking and seeing fingers inside trigger guards. I didn't know whether to politely ask him to take his finger off the trigger or if that would just exacerbate the situation.
It would probably exacerbate the situation. You can plead your case, as you did, but NEVER say anything that could be construed as you telling an officer how to do his job.

As far as "travelling", the weapon can be in ANY state, whether loaded or not, concealed or not, if you meet the definition of travelling (generally crossing 3 county lines). The officer was right in saying it would be better to be concealed, because there's no interpretation or definition involved there; if the gun is in the car and is not "in plain sight" (holstered under the front seat is fine), you are not prohibited from owning the firearm, and the officer doesn't have probable cause to think you're about to or have committed a crime more serious than a traffic ticket, then UCW quite simply has not occurred regardless of where you've come from and where you're going.

CompVest
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#5

Post by CompVest »

The gun should be concealed in your car.
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BrassMonkey
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#6

Post by BrassMonkey »

What kind of ammo do they use?
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mgood
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#7

Post by mgood »

BrassMonkey wrote:What kind of ammo do they use?
LOL, not enough light shining in the right direction to see the bullet in the chamber.
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TxRVer
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#8

Post by TxRVer »

So did the officer ever figure out why the bullet wouldn't fit in the mag? "rlol"
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mgood
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#9

Post by mgood »

I don't know. She seemed to give up and take them seperately back to their car. When they came back, the male officer waited until I was in my car and then handed me the pistol with the slide back, the loaded magazine, and the extra round as three seperate items. I inserted the magazine, dropped the slide chambering a round, ejected the mag and loaded the extra round and reinserted the magazine right in front of them and they didn't bat an eyelash. This was while I was asking about whether or not it was supposed to be concealed. He never said, "hey, don't load up until we can get clear," or anything like that.

Neither here nor there, but both of these Ft Worth officers were very young. I was in my mid-twenties and guessed that they were both younger than me. Assuming that they had to be at least 21 before becoming police officers (Is that right? I went to school with a guy who became a police officer in Hobbs, NM well before he turned 21), they could not have had much experience.

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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#10

Post by KRM45 »

mgood wrote:Not particularly, no.
I understand their need for caution. But I do wish they'd keep their finger off the trigger until they really plan to shoot someone. In both of those cases, I remember looking and seeing fingers inside trigger guards. I didn't know whether to politely ask him to take his finger off the trigger or if that would just exacerbate the situation.
Rest assured, they did really plan to shoot you...

dukalmighty
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#11

Post by dukalmighty »

[quote][I was pulled over by the Fort Worth Police. As I'm easing to the shoulder, John asks me "what about the gun?" I tell him to just be cool, keep his hands away from it, and don't make any sudden moves. "We're legal. We're travelling," I say. When the officer came up to the window, he asked if we had been drinking. He said I weaved a little back there. (Maybe I was messing with the radio or the heater or something. I don't know. Maybe I did weave.) I told him no. He asked to see my license and insurence. I already had my drivers' license in my hand before he came up. My insurence card was in a folder attached to the sunvisor. I reached up and got it and turned to hand it to him and looked into the barrel of his pistol. /quote] This is another good reason to travel in a depends,
It is said that if you line up all the cars in the world end-to-end, someone would be stupid enough to try to pass them

tbranch
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#12

Post by tbranch »

Liko81 wrote:if you meet the definition of travelling (generally crossing 3 county lines).
I don't believe that you have to cross any county lines to be travelling and the law was just updated to prevent some DAs from trying to define it as such.

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longtooth
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#13

Post by longtooth »

THe # of county lines crossed was neve law. Until the travelling law was clarified it was the discretion of the officer to decied if you were traveling. If his definintion was: "If they are crossing 3 county lines I will consider them travelling." Then that is ok. A different officer or agency may have a different definition.
One of you searchers please find & post the official 5 criteria that it takes to be legally travelling now please. I am going to try by memory:

In your private vehicle.
Legally able to possess the firearm.
Not ingaged in any criminal activity other than a traffic violation.
Not a member of any gang.
Handgun not in plain view.

I know I have these somewhere but could not find them right now.
LT
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Liko81
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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#14

Post by Liko81 »

longtooth wrote:THe # of county lines crossed was neve law. Until the travelling law was clarified it was the discretion of the officer to decied if you were traveling. If his definintion was: "If they are crossing 3 county lines I will consider them travelling." Then that is ok. A different officer or agency may have a different definition.
One of you searchers please find & post the official 5 criteria that it takes to be legally travelling now please. I am going to try by memory:

In your private vehicle.
Legally able to possess the firearm.
Not ingaged in any criminal activity other than a traffic violation.
Not a member of any gang.
Handgun not in plain view.

I know I have these somewhere but could not find them right now.
LT
You've pretty much got it. The vehicle you are in does not have to be your own, so long as you are lawfully controlling it (i.e. you didn't steal it), so you can be driving a friend's car or a company car and be protected by the law (your company may have its own rules on gun carry in their vehicles). However, this is all technically a seperate exception to UCW than travelling. From a practical standpoint it can be taken as a presumption of "travelling", but the letter of the law makes it quite clear that you can sit in the parking lot with a concealed weapon in your vehicle and you have not broken any law.

"Travelling" is more vague as many have said; it could be passing through the state in which case the travellers exemption simply mirrors federal law granting "full faith and credit" to someone carrying from one state to another with no intent to stop or stay in states in between. Or it could mean if you are moving between any two premises no matter the distance. Or it could mean running without dribbling. Generally it is a common-sense judgement call and was up to the officer's discretion on whether to arrest and the DA's on whether to prosecute. The specification made any judgement call moot for the most common means of travelling - motor vehicles - but it did so not by specifically defining travelling, but by defining being in a motor vehicle as a seperate exemption.

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Re: Looking Down the Barrel

#15

Post by srothstein »

Just for technical accuracy, the new law on carrying in a car is not aprt of the traveling exception. The traveling exception still exists, and the pre-eminent case law on it says that traveling is a fact to be decided by the jury.

The new law says that it is specifically not an offense to be carrying in your car, by making it an element of the basic offense to be proven.

The rules are that you are:

1. In a car that you own or is in your control (or on the way directly to the car).
2. concealing the handgun (it cannot be in plain view)
3. Not engaged in any criminal activity other than a class C traffic misdemeanor
4. Not prohibited by law from possessing a firearm
5. Not a member of a criminal street gang.

The way the law did this was to state that it is not illegal to have a gun in a vehcile you own or control, then add a new offense that applies if you are in a car and the above conidtions are not met.

In other words, if you are in a car you own or control, the officer has to have probable cause that the above points are not true to lawfully arrest you. All of them must be proven in court before you even have to make a defensive statement to the court.
Steve Rothstein
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