Page 1 of 2
Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:54 pm
by sjfcontrol
I have been contacted by a person who is interested in a class, but has asked me a question that I'm not sure about. (In fact, not sure anybody is sure about.)
She let her CHL expire in 2011, and has apparently already started the online process, and is getting her prints taken tomorrow. She originally contacted me requesting a "renewal class", which caused some amount of confusion.
Anyway, the question is, since the online process has already been started, and the fee paid, is there any reason she couldn't wait until after 9/1 in order to take the shorter class. I couldn't think of any reason this couldn't be done, provided the payment to DPS doesn't age past one-year. I just wasn't sure if an application started BEFORE 9/1 might require the 10 hour class even after 9/1.
Any ideas either way?
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:58 pm
by dogflight
SECTION 4. The change in law made by this Act applies only
to an application to obtain or renew a license to carry a concealed
handgun submitted on or after the effective date of this Act. An
application submitted before the effective date of this Act is
governed by the law in effect when the application was submitted,
and the former law is continued in effect for that purpose.
IANAL, but the way I read the statute, because she has already started the application process, she will be required to take the 10 hour class. Because of this section, I have advised my "deferring till after 9/1" students to NOT start the process until September.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:01 pm
by bizarrenormality
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:39 pm
by MasterOfNone
But we also have to consider this statement from the Admin Code:
Rule 6.13(b) wrote:...An application is not considered to have been received until it is complete.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:46 pm
by bizarrenormality
They have two choices.
1. Wait for the shorter class. Hope DPS accepts it. If all goes well, join the expected September rush and delays.
2. Take the full class now, beat the rush, and get their license
at least a month sooner.
I wouldn't presume to advise what's best for somebody who already did the online application.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:47 pm
by Keith B
MasterOfNone wrote:But we also have to consider this statement from the Admin Code:
Rule 6.13(b) wrote:...An application is not considered to have been received until it is complete.
I believe that means complete as in correctly and properly filled out.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:04 pm
by MasterOfNone
Keith B wrote:MasterOfNone wrote:But we also have to consider this statement from the Admin Code:
Rule 6.13(b) wrote:...An application is not considered to have been received until it is complete.
I believe that means complete as in correctly and properly filled out.
But the Admin rules use the term "complete" to refer to having submitted all materials in Rule 6.12(8):
Rule 6.12(8) wrote:(8) Failure to complete application process. If an applicant fails to provide all required application materials, and fails to provide within 90 days of the department's request any additional information or materials requested by the department necessary to process the application, the application process will be terminated as set out in §6.13(a) of this title (relating to Application Review and Background Investigation).
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:58 pm
by Keith B
MasterOfNone wrote:Keith B wrote:MasterOfNone wrote:But we also have to consider this statement from the Admin Code:
Rule 6.13(b) wrote:...An application is not considered to have been received until it is complete.
I believe that means complete as in correctly and properly filled out.
But the Admin rules use the term "complete" to refer to having submitted all materials in Rule 6.12(8):
Rule 6.12(8) wrote:(8) Failure to complete application process. If an applicant fails to provide all required application materials, and fails to provide within 90 days of the department's request any additional information or materials requested by the department necessary to process the application, the application process will be terminated as set out in §6.13(a) of this title (relating to Application Review and Background Investigation).
Nope, you have to read the whole rule, you can't just pick a piece out of it to determine what it is saying. 6.13 is referring to the completeness of the application being accurate and properly filled out
RULE §6.13
Application Review and Background Investigation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(a) Applications must be complete and legible. If an application is not legible or complete, the department will notify the applicant of the deficiency. The applicant will have 90 days from the date of the deficiency notification letter to amend the application. Upon written request, the department may extend the period to amend the application for one additional 90 day period. After the period to amend has expired, the application process will be terminated. An individual whose application has been terminated under this subsection will be required to submit new application materials and fees to apply for a license in the future.
(b) Time to review application and complete background investigation. The statutory time periods for the department to conduct application reviews and background investigations shall be measured from the date an application was received and complete. An application is not considered to have been received until it is complete.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:32 pm
by Crossfire
Instructors cannot possibly be expected to know when each student started their online application, and then sort them out. "You get the 10 hour class - you get the 6 hour class." That just is not gonna happen.
The application is complete when all materials have been received by DPS - INCLUDING the CHL-100 form. So, no one can "complete" the application until after they have taken the class.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:37 pm
by sjfcontrol
Crossfire wrote:Instructors cannot possibly be expected to know when each student started their online application, and then sort them out. "You get the 10 hour class - you get the 6 hour class." That just is not gonna happen.
The application is complete when all materials have been received by DPS - INCLUDING the CHL-100 form. So, no one can "complete" the application until after they have taken the class.
So, you're saying she can take the 10 hour class now, OR. the 4 hour class in Sept?
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:42 am
by dogflight
I would (try to) get an opinion from DPS before making a recommendation to someone that has already started the application process to wait and take a shorter class. While crossfire's point is well taken and may very well be valid, that interpretation would tend to make the verbiage in Section 4 of the new law completely meaningless. In the end, I suppose it's really up to DPS and what they think it means.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:54 am
by dogflight
To somewhat contradict myself... on the other hand, a strict interpretation of Section 4, above, might cause a lot of applicants to be stuck in some sort of purgatory where they're still required to take a 10 hour class because they applied before 9/1, but after 9/1 they can't find an instructor still teaching the "long version". Can't imagine that's what the legislature had in mind either.
Sigh.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:11 am
by jmra
dogflight wrote:To somewhat contradict myself... on the other hand, a strict interpretation of Section 4, above, might cause a lot of applicants to be stuck in some sort of purgatory where they're still required to take a 10 hour class because they applied before 9/1, but after 9/1 they can't find an instructor still teaching the "long version". Can't imagine that's what the legislature had in mind either.
Sigh.
What exactly would DPS have to gain by digging in their heels? If there is any leeway whatsoever I doubt it would be an issue.
That being said, if it were me I would go ahead and take the class.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:38 am
by kjolly
I believe DPS is required to follow the statues of the law, and must decide on the basis of the laws in effect when the application was filed. Its not likely that they have much leeway in making these decisions.
Re: Question regarding classtimes
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:49 am
by sjfcontrol
jmra wrote:dogflight wrote:To somewhat contradict myself... on the other hand, a strict interpretation of Section 4, above, might cause a lot of applicants to be stuck in some sort of purgatory where they're still required to take a 10 hour class because they applied before 9/1, but after 9/1 they can't find an instructor still teaching the "long version". Can't imagine that's what the legislature had in mind either.
Sigh.
What exactly would DPS have to gain by digging in their heels? If there is any leeway whatsoever I doubt it would be an issue.
That being said, if it were me I would go ahead and take the class.
Seriously? It's called a bureaucracy. It doesn't have to make sense, or gain anything for them.