Issues with forum moderation
Moderators: carlson1, Keith B, Charles L. Cotton
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casselthief
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anygunanywhere
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The government shall make no law....Lucky45 wrote:There is no free speech anymore.
Doesn't apply to private internet boards.
Anygun.
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
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Charles L. Cotton
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casselthief
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......
Last edited by casselthief on Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun..."
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Charles L. Cotton
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You don't have the first clue what was behind the post deletion or what efforts have been made for several weeks prior to avoid continuing problems. Yet with no information whatsoever, you post this insult to the Moderators.Lucky45 wrote:Get used to it buddy. There is no free speech anymore. Only 2nd Amendment you can jump up and down about around here. But 1st.casselthief wrote:someone indiscriminantly deleting posts, again
Chas.
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Lucky45
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I am only speaking from experience. I think you probably need to call a meeting with all your moderators because some members are allow to say whatever they want in this forum and then anything to contrary get the delete button. I know there is no room for cussing or derogatory statement, but any difference in opinion get BACKSPACE button or EDITED.Charles L. Cotton wrote:You don't have the first clue what was behind the post deletion or what efforts have been made for several weeks prior to avoid continuing problems. Yet with no information whatsoever, you post this insult to the Moderators.Lucky45 wrote:Get used to it buddy. There is no free speech anymore. Only 2nd Amendment you can jump up and down about around here. But 1st.casselthief wrote:someone indiscriminantly deleting posts, again
Chas.
And if you follow this forum as much as I do you can see the trend. I know some may fear speaking up. But in my opinion, you have some Gestapo on your volunteer list.
Will I get the BACKSPACE hence forth for saying that. Will depends on which amendment we are on?
I like the forum, especially since it deals with TX issues, but at times I can believe what I see happen and read.
If you don't stand for something, then you will fall for anything.
I think the moderators do a great job on this forum. I personally appreciate the rules set forth in this forum and the civility that it fosters. However I have seen a slow divergence by some in this regard and would, simply as another forum member, ask all to carefully consider before they post anything that could violate the letter and intent of the forum guidelines. I avoid PDO and some other forums because the level of discourse is of such low quality due to the emotions and content of many on those forums.
Yes, there is a first amendment, but free speech doesn't apply on someone else's nickle. When a person pays thir own way, they can set the rules and say what they want. Otherwise we live by the rules set forth by the private entity that pays the way. Try saying what you want that offends me in my home or carelessly carry your firearm in my home and I can assure you the 1st and 2nd amendments will not be applicable at that time!!!
Thanks for letting me rant....
My $.02.
GT
Yes, there is a first amendment, but free speech doesn't apply on someone else's nickle. When a person pays thir own way, they can set the rules and say what they want. Otherwise we live by the rules set forth by the private entity that pays the way. Try saying what you want that offends me in my home or carelessly carry your firearm in my home and I can assure you the 1st and 2nd amendments will not be applicable at that time!!!
Thanks for letting me rant....
My $.02.
GT
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Lucky45
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I forgot to address that earlier, but I never had a problem with that. I know it is not a pay site. If you have guidelines spelled out which everyone try to adhere to and then you still have editing by someone's personal bias to what is said. Then I would question it.GrillKing wrote:Yes, there is a first amendment, but free speech doesn't apply on someone else's nickle.
GT
If you don't stand for something, then you will fall for anything.
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txinvestigator
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Private forums are just that, private. There is no 1st issue, just as if you come into my house there is no 2nd issue. I can BAR guns from my home, regardless of your constitutional RKBA.
Forums are moderated by volunteers who use a standard of conduct, usually loosley written, to make decision on allowable conduct. Since each moderator has different points of view, they will moderate differently.
Those members who are edited/censored will almost always believe they were not moderated fairly. That makes sense, becuase if the member thought the way the moderator did the member would never have made the edited/censored post.
There is no school for all of the members to go to for clarification on the rules, no case law for us to refer to, no board or panel for the moderators to gather a consesus for editing/censoring, so it appears, and in fact to an extent, is arbitrary.
And just for the record, I have had post edited, one deleted, and been asked to chill in a particular thread. Its all part of message boards.
now;
Forums are moderated by volunteers who use a standard of conduct, usually loosley written, to make decision on allowable conduct. Since each moderator has different points of view, they will moderate differently.
Those members who are edited/censored will almost always believe they were not moderated fairly. That makes sense, becuase if the member thought the way the moderator did the member would never have made the edited/censored post.
There is no school for all of the members to go to for clarification on the rules, no case law for us to refer to, no board or panel for the moderators to gather a consesus for editing/censoring, so it appears, and in fact to an extent, is arbitrary.
And just for the record, I have had post edited, one deleted, and been asked to chill in a particular thread. Its all part of message boards.
now;
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
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Charles L. Cotton
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The posts in this thread were moved from another thread about CHL insurance. I moved them so the discussion in the other thread could get back on topic.
I want to make a few observations about TexasCHLforum rules, the Moderators and the members. I hope this information may shed a little more light on how the board is run.
First, I want to assure everyone that we make every effort not to over-moderate the forum. When TexasCHLforum got too big for me to handle by myself, a group of moderators was selected. One had to withdraw because of time constraints and he was replaced so we could keep enough Moderators to provide good coverage.
When the Moderator group was being formed, the first thing we did was develop a code of conduct for ourselves and reduced it to writing. Here is an excerpt from the Responsibilities Section:
While we try to limit our involvement as Moderators, there are times when we have to deal with situations that require immediate action, such as posts containing profanity and blatant personal attacks on another member. But lesser issues require the Moderators to discuss the matter before any action is taken. The Moderator Guidelines stress that seven heads are better than one.
I hope this information gives good insight into the guiding principles for the Moderators. Now I would like to address some specific topics. First, we can and do make mistakes. The private Moderator forum is used to discuss specific non-urgent issues before deciding whether to take action and, if so, what action is appropriate. All Moderators’ opinions are heard and respected. Sometimes decisions are unanimous, sometimes they are a majority with some dissenters. I actually like it when there are dissenting opinions as that helps to moderate the Moderators by making sure we consider both sides to an issue. But in spite of all of the procedures we follow, mistakes or bad decisions can be made. When they are, we make every effort to correct them if possible. I have made mistakes or exercised poor judgment, but thankfully I believe they have been few in number. When I did, I acknowledged them and apologized. If you could see the discussions in the Moderators Forum, you would see that we hold ourselves to an even higher standard as we are all aware that our actions will either help TexasCHLforum flourish, or they will destroy it.
Deleting or editing posts: Our policy is to delete posts only when necessary and when we do, we copy it to the Moderators Forum and send a PM to the poster. The PM explains the problem with the post and invites the person to edit it and re-post. This procedure works the vast majority of the time, but in a very few situations, we have repeat offenders who clearly do not wish to follow the forum rules. There is a limit to our willingness to copy a deleted post to the Moderators Forum (so that it can be sent to the poster if he requests) and PM someone who repeatedly violates forum rules. Once we reach this point, the post is simply deleted without copying and without a PM to the poster.
When we have to edit profanity, pseudo-profanity, or abbreviated profanity, we also send a PM to the poster and politely remind them of the forum rules and ask that they re-read the Mission Statement, especially the 10 Year Old Daughter Rule. Repeat offenders are very few, but they do exist and they are treated the same way as described in the preceding paragraphs.
Off-topic posts and subject-matter editing or deleting: TexasCHLforum has grown far beyond anything I envisioned when I opened it in December, 2004. Early on, we were a good bit more conscientious about locking threads that were not directly on point with guns in general and CHL in particular. As the forum grew however, we became much more of an on-line family or community and to foster that atmosphere, we allow what would have once been considered off-topic posts, but for the most part, they still have to be reasonably related to guns, shooting, self-defense, legal issues, or current events bearing on gun owners. (Ironically, this issue has generated a great deal of discussion in the Moderators Forum as we grappled with trying to draw a not-so-bright-line without opening the doors to an anything goes philosophy.) This is one of the toughest calls to be made by the Moderators. If we are not going to strictly adhere to the original focus of the forum, i.e. Texas CHL issues, how and where do we limit the deviation from the original theme? When making this decision, we may very possibly offend someone whose post was deleted or edited and another similar post was not. Our only alternatives are to either go back to strict enforcement of off-topic posts (which we will not do), or try our best to get a consensus among the Moderators as to how far is too far. This is not an easy task, so please understand our dilemma and don’t think we are singling anyone out for preferential or harsh treatment.
There are times when a thread can be well within the rather loose boundary of being on-topic, but it will be locked. Such threads almost always deal with issues that are highly emotional and ripe for degenerating into personal attacks because of strong opinions held by different forum members. We’ve all seen them and you folks know exactly the type of thread I mean. They can turn bad so quickly, that people who would never violate the 10 Year Old Daughter Rule post a response with profanity, simply because it is an emotionally charged issue concerning which they have very strong opinions. (Sometimes a thread starts out fine, but an issue gets injected into the discussion that quickly sours it.)
Let me assure everyone, I will ever delete or edit a post because the opinion expressed differs from mine, nor will be Moderators do so. If it appears that way at first blush, then don’t hesitate to send PM to the Moderators or to me and get an explanation. (As previously mentioned, we don’t delete or moderate posts without sending an explanatory PM, unless we have had to do that repeatedly for a member.)
For those who actually read this entire post, thanks for sticking with me. I confess that I am troubled that some members feel they are not being treated fairly by the Moderators, because I know the level of their commitment to the Moderator Guidelines and the overall mission of the forum. While we may not always agree on every issue or administrative action, please understand that we are doing our best to preserve the very unique community everyone (members and Moderators) has created here at TexasCHLforum.
Chas.
I want to make a few observations about TexasCHLforum rules, the Moderators and the members. I hope this information may shed a little more light on how the board is run.
First, I want to assure everyone that we make every effort not to over-moderate the forum. When TexasCHLforum got too big for me to handle by myself, a group of moderators was selected. One had to withdraw because of time constraints and he was replaced so we could keep enough Moderators to provide good coverage.
When the Moderator group was being formed, the first thing we did was develop a code of conduct for ourselves and reduced it to writing. Here is an excerpt from the Responsibilities Section:
I believe this clearly reveals the mind-set with which all of us approach our duties as Moderators. The goal is not control, but to foster the mission of TexasCHLforum with the minimum amount of intervention as possible. In fact, another element in the Moderator Guidelines reads:Responsibilities
1. Be examples to all members of faithful & aggressive adherence to the mission statement of this forum. It should be reviewed occasionally.
2. Actively encourage participation by all members regardless of age, experience, area of expertise, or tenure on the forum.
3. Promote a strong bond of community allegiance, through an atmosphere of friendship & fun in light hearted discussion as well as serious, straight forward and polite discussion in matters of great consequences.
4. As much as possible read all post and show interest in the topic and the author. New members, new shooters, young and inexperienced members should feel at ease to ask any question or tell the newest thing they learned no matter how basic it might be to the experienced & aged shooter.
In all things restraint is to be the greatest virtue. Moderators are not to become Post Policemen.
While we try to limit our involvement as Moderators, there are times when we have to deal with situations that require immediate action, such as posts containing profanity and blatant personal attacks on another member. But lesser issues require the Moderators to discuss the matter before any action is taken. The Moderator Guidelines stress that seven heads are better than one.
I hope this information gives good insight into the guiding principles for the Moderators. Now I would like to address some specific topics. First, we can and do make mistakes. The private Moderator forum is used to discuss specific non-urgent issues before deciding whether to take action and, if so, what action is appropriate. All Moderators’ opinions are heard and respected. Sometimes decisions are unanimous, sometimes they are a majority with some dissenters. I actually like it when there are dissenting opinions as that helps to moderate the Moderators by making sure we consider both sides to an issue. But in spite of all of the procedures we follow, mistakes or bad decisions can be made. When they are, we make every effort to correct them if possible. I have made mistakes or exercised poor judgment, but thankfully I believe they have been few in number. When I did, I acknowledged them and apologized. If you could see the discussions in the Moderators Forum, you would see that we hold ourselves to an even higher standard as we are all aware that our actions will either help TexasCHLforum flourish, or they will destroy it.
Deleting or editing posts: Our policy is to delete posts only when necessary and when we do, we copy it to the Moderators Forum and send a PM to the poster. The PM explains the problem with the post and invites the person to edit it and re-post. This procedure works the vast majority of the time, but in a very few situations, we have repeat offenders who clearly do not wish to follow the forum rules. There is a limit to our willingness to copy a deleted post to the Moderators Forum (so that it can be sent to the poster if he requests) and PM someone who repeatedly violates forum rules. Once we reach this point, the post is simply deleted without copying and without a PM to the poster.
When we have to edit profanity, pseudo-profanity, or abbreviated profanity, we also send a PM to the poster and politely remind them of the forum rules and ask that they re-read the Mission Statement, especially the 10 Year Old Daughter Rule. Repeat offenders are very few, but they do exist and they are treated the same way as described in the preceding paragraphs.
Off-topic posts and subject-matter editing or deleting: TexasCHLforum has grown far beyond anything I envisioned when I opened it in December, 2004. Early on, we were a good bit more conscientious about locking threads that were not directly on point with guns in general and CHL in particular. As the forum grew however, we became much more of an on-line family or community and to foster that atmosphere, we allow what would have once been considered off-topic posts, but for the most part, they still have to be reasonably related to guns, shooting, self-defense, legal issues, or current events bearing on gun owners. (Ironically, this issue has generated a great deal of discussion in the Moderators Forum as we grappled with trying to draw a not-so-bright-line without opening the doors to an anything goes philosophy.) This is one of the toughest calls to be made by the Moderators. If we are not going to strictly adhere to the original focus of the forum, i.e. Texas CHL issues, how and where do we limit the deviation from the original theme? When making this decision, we may very possibly offend someone whose post was deleted or edited and another similar post was not. Our only alternatives are to either go back to strict enforcement of off-topic posts (which we will not do), or try our best to get a consensus among the Moderators as to how far is too far. This is not an easy task, so please understand our dilemma and don’t think we are singling anyone out for preferential or harsh treatment.
There are times when a thread can be well within the rather loose boundary of being on-topic, but it will be locked. Such threads almost always deal with issues that are highly emotional and ripe for degenerating into personal attacks because of strong opinions held by different forum members. We’ve all seen them and you folks know exactly the type of thread I mean. They can turn bad so quickly, that people who would never violate the 10 Year Old Daughter Rule post a response with profanity, simply because it is an emotionally charged issue concerning which they have very strong opinions. (Sometimes a thread starts out fine, but an issue gets injected into the discussion that quickly sours it.)
Let me assure everyone, I will ever delete or edit a post because the opinion expressed differs from mine, nor will be Moderators do so. If it appears that way at first blush, then don’t hesitate to send PM to the Moderators or to me and get an explanation. (As previously mentioned, we don’t delete or moderate posts without sending an explanatory PM, unless we have had to do that repeatedly for a member.)
For those who actually read this entire post, thanks for sticking with me. I confess that I am troubled that some members feel they are not being treated fairly by the Moderators, because I know the level of their commitment to the Moderator Guidelines and the overall mission of the forum. While we may not always agree on every issue or administrative action, please understand that we are doing our best to preserve the very unique community everyone (members and Moderators) has created here at TexasCHLforum.
Chas.
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nitrogen
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I spend a lot of time on another gun forum that's a lot more "free wheeling" than this one as far as a code of conduct goes. It's not a 10-year old daughter safe forum, but it's a lot of fun, and i've made lots of great friends there.
Now, when the subject of the Texas CHL comes up, I send them over here, and let them know, "Read the rules, it's a lot stricter than here, but the information there is top notch, so respect it."
The good information I get here is well worth the restraint; and i've made some good friends here, as well.
Now, while I might consider some of the "restrictions" here a bit over the top (I can't find a better word to use, because restrictions has a negative connotation, and I don't mean it to here) I feel like Charles has invited me into his home, and if I want to be a guest here, I should respect how he feels about things. I wouldn't want Charles or one of the other moderators coming over to the other board I hang out at, and telling me to "clean up my act." I think the same goes for here. It'd be just as inappropriate for me to get upset and tell 'em to "loosen up".
Part of what my father taught me growing up, is "People are different than you, and might think differently about different things. Wether you disagree with them or not, you still have to treat them the way you'd want to be treated."
I've been here for over a year, and have gotten great information about all kinds of things, not just CHL and gun related things.
Hanging out only with people that share 100% of your values gets boring, and you'll never grow that way.
Now, when the subject of the Texas CHL comes up, I send them over here, and let them know, "Read the rules, it's a lot stricter than here, but the information there is top notch, so respect it."
The good information I get here is well worth the restraint; and i've made some good friends here, as well.
Now, while I might consider some of the "restrictions" here a bit over the top (I can't find a better word to use, because restrictions has a negative connotation, and I don't mean it to here) I feel like Charles has invited me into his home, and if I want to be a guest here, I should respect how he feels about things. I wouldn't want Charles or one of the other moderators coming over to the other board I hang out at, and telling me to "clean up my act." I think the same goes for here. It'd be just as inappropriate for me to get upset and tell 'em to "loosen up".
Part of what my father taught me growing up, is "People are different than you, and might think differently about different things. Wether you disagree with them or not, you still have to treat them the way you'd want to be treated."
I've been here for over a year, and have gotten great information about all kinds of things, not just CHL and gun related things.
Hanging out only with people that share 100% of your values gets boring, and you'll never grow that way.
.השואה... לעולם לא עוד
Holocaust... Never Again.
Some people create their own storms and get upset when it rains.
--anonymous
Holocaust... Never Again.
Some people create their own storms and get upset when it rains.
--anonymous
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txinvestigator
- Senior Member
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Excellent post!nitrogen wrote:I spend a lot of time on another gun forum that's a lot more "free wheeling" than this one as far as a code of conduct goes. It's not a 10-year old daughter safe forum, but it's a lot of fun, and i've made lots of great friends there.
Now, when the subject of the Texas CHL comes up, I send them over here, and let them know, "Read the rules, it's a lot stricter than here, but the information there is top notch, so respect it."
The good information I get here is well worth the restraint; and i've made some good friends here, as well.
Now, while I might consider some of the "restrictions" here a bit over the top (I can't find a better word to use, because restrictions has a negative connotation, and I don't mean it to here) I feel like Charles has invited me into his home, and if I want to be a guest here, I should respect how he feels about things. I wouldn't want Charles or one of the other moderators coming over to the other board I hang out at, and telling me to "clean up my act." I think the same goes for here. It'd be just as inappropriate for me to get upset and tell 'em to "loosen up".
Part of what my father taught me growing up, is "People are different than you, and might think differently about different things. Wether you disagree with them or not, you still have to treat them the way you'd want to be treated."
I've been here for over a year, and have gotten great information about all kinds of things, not just CHL and gun related things.
Hanging out only with people that share 100% of your values gets boring, and you'll never grow that way.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
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longtooth
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:31 pm
- Location: Angelina County
Gentlemen,
We all thank you for your confidence & comments.
We all thank you for your confidence & comments.
Carry 24-7 or guess right.
CHL Instructor. http://www.pdtraining.us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
NRA/TSRA Life Member - TFC Member #11
with TXII would also like to thank all the MOD's for the great job I think they are doing to keep this a first class site as this fourm is growing very fast.
I visit other sites sometimes and just get tired of the insults thrown
at other posters sometimes when some think they know more than
anyone else.
thanks again for a great forum.
