Hey everyone - Firstly, I would like to wish you all a Very Merry Christmas.
So, in the next couple of weeks in I'm looking to purchase another Semi-auto Pistol in .40 S&W Cal. This would primarily be for daily carry, be that OC or CC.
Currently I carry my fabulous ( I think so... ) CZ75 P07 in 9mm and would like the option for alternating to the bigger round, and I'm happy with the physical size of the gun for carry and I'm not particularly smitten by 'sub compact' -- I like the 3.8" barrel configuration.
So: I'm tempted by the following:
>Smith&Wesson M&P 40cal
>IWI Jericho PSL in .40cal
>Glock 23
I'm looking for your experience with reliability etc, and then I'll go to the frame and hire out the contenders.
I can't speak to Jericho reliability, but I own a M&P45, Glock 19, and Glock 17. All three are very reliable pistols in .45 or 9mm. No reason to expect that they wouldn't be equally reliable in .40 S&W. One thing to be aware of, particularly with regard to shooting reloads, and with regard to rechambering self-defense ammo after having been shooting ball ammo at the range, and that is bullet setback - to the effects of which the .40 S&W cartridge seems to be more sensitive than the other two calibers, with the consequently increase possibility of Kabooms. But certainly the performance is there if you want bang for the buck without increasing frame size.
Keep the following in mind...... I just now went and mic'ed out the frame width of my full-sized M&P45 and my compact Glock 19. The .45's frame width was 1.156" across. The 9mm's frame width was 1.163" (the slides on both pistols are narrower than their frames).......in other words, the M&P45 was actually a tiny bit narrower than the G19. Now, that is not enough narrower that you'd notice the difference carrying either pistol, but it does mean that you could carry a .45, in a pistol no wider than a 9mm, in a caliber that is more powerful than 9mm, but without the attendant risks of bullet setback in a high-pressure cartridge like .40 S&W. In other words, you don't HAVE to go with a .40 to get what you're looking for........unless you just really like .40 cal and want it, which is perfectly acceptable too. (Except for the single-stack G36, the Glock .45s are big old honkin' guns that can't compare to the M&P for compactness. OTH, they have higher capacities than the M&P.)
Another possibility is the Springfield XD/XDM line. I own a XDM45 Compact 3.8, and it is the equivalent of a G30 in capacity, but no bigger than the G19 in size, and it also has slide contours which are more conducive to carry. It also has additional features that make it worth consideration. When I am carrying a double-stack .45, that is my go-to gun.
I'm just saying that you have options you hadn't maybe considered. And by the way, my EDC is a G17 lately, so it's not like I would steer someone away from either a Glock or a 9mm. But my other carry guns include .45s, and I sold the only .40 I ever owned - a H&K USP Compact - not because it was a bad gun, but because I never could get used to shooting .40 caliber very well, compared to which .45 is a big old pussycat.
Food for thought......
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
No idea about the other one, but you can't really go wrong with a Glock or M&P as far as reliability is concerned. I trust them equally, but I'm also pretty anal about keeping my guns cleaned, lubed, and fed with quality ammo.
My primary carry gun is a Gen4 Glock 19, which is the 9mm version of the 23. It's been fantastic to me. Not a single hiccup in 600 rounds of various types of ammo. My light carry gun is a 9mm M&P Shield. Not a single hiccup in 400 rounds of various ammo.
I know that these aren't the specific guns that you're looking at, but I would have full confidence in buying other guns in these two families. A friend of mine carries the Glock 23 and a .45 M&P, and has had the same positive experience.
Get yourself some range time and pick the one that feels better to you. They're both excellent choices.
Thank you for taking the time to post your experiences. Certainly a lot of info, so I wanted to thank you both first before taking the time to digest the info with a nice cup of English Typhoon Tea !
the responses above are good and I dont want to add more to them about gun manufacturers.
i would ask you to think about the caliber a bit.
Why a .40?
Why not a 9mm or .45?
Round count vs a .45, a .40 has more, but less than a 9mm on the same platform.
stopping power of a 9mm vs a .45 or .40?
that is always a good question, but FBI statistics have shown that the .40 and 9mm are not that much different and if I remember some of my reading on this forum correctly, the 9mm may have had more penetration than the .40.
cost of the rounds?
9mm is cheaper than the .40
Availability of the rounds
9mm is more available than the .40 (and I am thinking more of when ammo was short after Sandy Hook.
personally speaking, I have the 9mm, .40 and .45 of the M&P.
I shoot the 9mm the best, the .45 next and am horrible with the .40.
The .40 seems to kick more than even the .45, which seems strange, but true (at least with the M&P's.
League City, TX
Yankee born, but got to Texas as fast as I could! NRA / PSC / IANAL
The M&P .40 and the Glock 23 are both excellent choices. From my experience, reliability and quality seem to be a toss up. The ergonomics of the pistols are a bit different and in my experience the "pointability" of the two is different. This would be the biggest consideration for me if I were debating on carrying one over the other. I have shot them both and own 9mm flavors of the M&P and Glock. I tend to shoot the Glock better as the pistol seems to point more naturally for me. Other guys I know tell me the exact opposite. We are all built a little different so you may find you have a natural preference toward one design or another. From a functionality standpoint, they are both rock solid.
“While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.” ― Samuel Adams
Teamless wrote:The .40 seems to kick more than even the .45, which seems strange, but true (at least with the M&P's.
I agree with what Teamless wrote above about the perceived recoil, but with that said I still love the .40.
I'd add that the trigger reset on the G23 & M&P are a bit different. I have an early model M&P .40, and the trigger doesn't reset at the first 'click'. (Not certain if its been re-designed, but the newer ones that students have brought to class & I've shot don't have this problem). I'd definitely second the recommendation of another post above to test-drive at the range, or dry fire in the store before making your final decision.
The only .40cal that I've had the chance to shoot was a glock 23 (gen 3) I really liked it and on the strength of that I bought my wonderful Glock 20, which I absolutely love to pieces, but it's just too big cc in my humble pinion and per a previous topic, I may oc, but again probably not with my glock. That said, Glocks just seem to shoot intrinsically as an extension of where you are looking. . I have never shot an M&P although after holding one at my local gun shop they seem to fit me perfectly and are reminiscent of my fabulous CZ..
I did find that .40cal is snappy, but I shot it well ( maybe just the glock. .. )
To answer a comment from Teamless, I have absolute faith in the stopping power of my 9mm CZ coupled with Critical Duty rounds and whilst I never load to full capacity ( it always bothers me to over compress the magazine spring, and if I need 14 shots to hit my target and protect my family, then I believe that I should be rethinking things! ) I think that the thought of a .40 just appeals to me, although my next purchase will certainly be a .45cal
Based on the comments so far I think that I'll discount the Jericho for now. It seems to be very close to the CZ with probably no specific bonuses. . I could just go buy a cz in .40 cal
Your thoughts so far are invaluable and very appreciated.
Personally I will never buy a smith and wesson ever in my life. They recently threatened a lawsuit with a few of the major cerakote companies, drop in trigger companies, as well as a few of the small time stippling guys. Why on earth they give a flying pig what the end user does with his weapon is beyond me.
jb2012 wrote:Personally I will never buy a smith and wesson ever in my life. They recently threatened a lawsuit with a few of the major cerakote companies, drop in trigger companies, as well as a few of the small time stippling guys. Why on earth they give a flying pig what the end user does with his weapon is beyond me.
I find that to be incredible... can they even do that?
That reminds me of being back in the UK and managing a Recovery ( Wrecker ) Company. We once transported a Rolls Royce and they gave us STRICT instructions that at no point must it be seen on a Recovery truck ! and also there was once a guy who built a car with a Rolls Royce Merlin engine ( was in WW2 Spitfire etc ) and used the grille from a Rolls. They saw the picture and sued him for defamation... ! What is the world coming to lol.
I'm not sure that it would stop me buying a smith and wesson, but it surely is ridiculous.
John Galt wrote:I am sold on the ease of operation and reliability of Glock so I would say the 23.
The Only issue that I have with Glock is that when you shake them, they sound like they are all falling apart inside ( I know what the sound is... ) and the finish on the slide personally I think is just below standard compared to anything else in that price point. Will that make a difference if I have to use it in anger; - No, of course not, but I do like to ' like ' what I buy. ..
I find that to be incredible... can they even do that?
That reminds me of being back in the UK and managing a Recovery ( Wrecker ) Company. We once transported a Rolls Royce and they gave us STRICT instructions that at no point must it be seen on a Recovery truck ! and also there was once a guy who built a car with a Rolls Royce Merlin engine ( was in WW2 Spitfire etc ) and used the grille from a Rolls. They saw the picture and sued him for defamation... ! What is the world coming to lol.
I'm not sure that it would stop me buying a smith and wesson, but it surely is ridiculous.
John Galt wrote:I am sold on the ease of operation and reliability of Glock so I would say the 23.
The Only issue that I have with Glock is that when you shake them, they sound like they are all falling apart inside ( I know what the sound is... ) and the finish on the slide personally I think is just below standard compared to anything else in that price point. Will that make a difference if I have to use it in anger; - No, of course not, but I do like to ' like ' what I buy. ..[/quote]
You know I'd like to think that there is absolutely no way it would hold up in court
One decided advantage with the Glock is that you have multiple handgun options that will accept the same magazines. I have a 27, 23, and a 35. You obviously can't use a 9-round 27 mag in the larger guns, but the larger mags work just fine in the smaller gun.
Glocks have proven ruggedness and reliability, but I don't shoot them very well. This, for me, has to do with a very old football injury: a broken elbow that healed imperfectly and left me with an inability to completely straighten my dominant arm. Same reason I could never compete in powerlifting when in my prime...can't do a legal bench because I can't lockout. The grip angle on a 1911 is about 11 degrees more obtuse than that of a Glock; much better for me because I don't have to articulate my wrist as much.
Here I'll echo TAM's suggestion: think about including the Springfield XD and XD(M) in your evaluation. They have a contoured, somewhat rounded backstrap (interchangeable) but high on the grip the effective angle is the same as a 1911's. I have a "tactical" XD in 9mm; a Canyon Creek customized tactical XD in 9mm I bought for competition; a 4" compact service model in .45ACP; and one of the early XD(M) .40S&W bi-tone models. When Springfield came out with the XD, a number of experienced hoplophiles were suspicious of its Croatian manufacturing heritage. But over the years I think the guns have proven themselves every bit as reliable as any striker-fired gun. I know mine have seen a lot rounds down the pipe with a lot of different types of ammo, and I can't remember the last time I had a failure-to-eject or failure-to-feed. I had a Magtech squib a few years ago, but that wasn't the gun's fault.
FYI (not directed at you but to a general audience because so many are buying handguns this season), there are a number of different ways to determine natural point of aim, but I've found a very simple exercise to be helpful to folks thinking about a new handgun. First, check and double check that the gun is unloaded (natch). Second, grip and re-grip it a few times to get a good feel for it in your hands; make certain the middle of the pad of your index finger can be comfortably placed on the face of the trigger. Third, pick out a single, identifiable point on a wall or object on a shelf (always in a safe direction); visually fix on that point but do not rehearse pointing the gun at it. Fourth, close your eyes for a slow-count to at least five seconds. Fifth, keeping your eyes closed, extend the gun until you feel the sight-picture will align with the target point. Open your eyes.
If the point-of-aim is too high, you might be better served with a more angled grip, like that of a 1911. If too low, maybe a more acute grip angle, like a Glock, is for you. If the point-of-aim is skewed to your dominant side, the grip may be too large for your hands. If skewed toward your non-dominant side, the grip may be too small. Overly simplistic and takes only seconds, but I've found it to be a fairly reliable indicator of how natural a new gun will feel in the hand.
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