.22 cal LR not reliable for SD, is a .380?

[Abraham]

After years of relying on a 9mm as my minimal SD caliber, thinking .22 cal LR a no go for SD, while a .380 though a primer fired caliber is also under powered, I'm thinking of moving up to .45 ACP.

I've slowly been digesting a video posted here a while back, featuring a criminal being promptly put down with what appeared to be a 1911 .45 cal. The criminal had 2 guns in his hands and after being shot once immediately fell backward without a quiver...It appeared to be a gun shop that these criminals targeted to steal guns, but one of the two died for his efforts.

I've also been considering what a pal of mine who'd been in many shootouts (he was a retired HPD officer) said: No to 9mm (he'd shot some bad guys with this caliber and they kept shooting at him after being hit by his shots) went back to .45 cal with positive results and admonished me to move up to .45 caliber if I was ever to defend my life with a firearm...

Considering how many now rely on a .380 (which I identify better than a .22 LR, but only a bit better) I'm looking at this whole caliber thing...again.

Yes, yes, I know a caliber brouhaha, but that's not my question.

What's your experience with a 9 in a SD situation versus a 45?

Any?

Thanks!

[Bitter Clinger]

Heck, why not just go straight to a 10mm?

[Middle Age Russ]

I'd wager that the vast majority of us have exactly zero experience using a firearm in an SD situation, so I am happy to hear from anyone who has. That said, like most of us here, I base my primary defensive firearm choices on what is now commonly seen as truth -- that shot placement of a sufficiently powerful cartridge is a deciding factor IF the firearm is actually fired. Many times a self defense use may not require actually firing the gun. When a handgun is fired, only accurate fire to the CNS can be expected to render a threat harmless immediately. Hits anywhere else will likely take some time to be effective in stopping the threat. So, if you shoot the .45 best it may be that the .45 is the choice for you. Likewise if you shoot a .40 or 9mm best. .380 even has its place, since it seems to be the minimum caliber/energy considered by many a minimally effective.

[WTR]

All the Officers that I know carry some sidearm in .40 or .45 when given a choice of caliber. When I inquired as to why. One drug task force Officer said that it knocks them on there butt after the 1st hit......even the PCP loonies.

[RPBrown]

I'd wager that the vast majority of us have exactly zero experience using a firearm in an SD situation, so I am happy to hear from anyone who has. That said, like most of us here, I base my primary defensive firearm choices on what is now commonly seen as truth -- that shot placement of a sufficiently powerful cartridge is a deciding factor IF the firearm is actually fired. Many times a self defense use may not require actually firing the gun. When a handgun is fired, only accurate fire to the CNS can be expected to render a threat harmless immediately. Hits anywhere else will likely take some time to be effective in stopping the threat. So, if you shoot the .45 best it may be that the .45 is the choice for you. Likewise if you shoot a .40 or 9mm best. .380 even has its place, since it seems to be the minimum caliber/energy considered by many a minimally effective.

Although I agree completely here, I will take it a step farther. Although shot placement is ideal, it is very often not the contributing factor. With Adrenalin flowing, targets moving and shear panic in the case of having to use your weapon, perfect shot placement is far from guaranteed and most likely a moot point UNLESS (1) You have been in a SD situation more than once, ( 2) you are in a very controlled (in your favor) environment such as using a hall way at your home as a shoot ally, (3) you have ice water in your veins or (4) you are Chuck Norris . Take a look at most LEO shoot outs. How many rounds hit the intended target and how may misses are there?

Even though I've been hunting for over 50 years, and shot competitions for several years, I still have to calm myself down when targeting the first buck of the season and that about as controlled as you get when actually taking a life of anything, or at least for me it is.

Thats why I shoot a 45. If it hits most any part of a human, its going to at least temporally slow them down where as a 9 or 380 may not. I think even on a through and through it would slow them down considerably. Now, I do use a 9 or a 380 as a BUG but thats a different scenario. But then, thats just my .02

[rotor]

First, I hope I never have to find out. Rimfire anything though is always questionable as there are too many failures to go bang. The next question is which centerfire caliber is best. The reality depends of course on what one can carry, how many rounds, shot placement and ammo type. With modern .380 self defense ammo I believe it is adequate assuming one bad guy. Not too many small .380 have more than 7-8 round capacity and mag changes can be slow. A 1911 with 8 rounds that misses 8 times is not as effective as a fully loaded Glock 17 that hits 1/2 of the time.
Everything of course is a balance. I sometimes only carry a Kel-Tec P32. Is it adequate? .32ACP killed Hitler. Main thing is I would stay away from rimfire anything for self defense. I carry a Glock 21 (.45 ACP) as backup when I hunt.

[WTR]

First, I hope I never have to find out. Rimfire anything though is always questionable as there are too many failures to go bang. The next question is which centerfire caliber is best. The reality depends of course on what one can carry, how many rounds, shot placement and ammo type. With modern .380 self defense ammo I believe it is adequate assuming one bad guy. Not too many small .380 have more than 7-8 round capacity and mag changes can be slow. A 1911 with 8 rounds that misses 8 times is not as effective as a fully loaded Glock 17 that hits 1/2 of the time.
Everything of course is a balance. I sometimes only carry a Kel-Tec P32. Is it adequate? .32ACP killed Hitler. Main thing is I would stay away from rimfire anything for self defense. I carry a Glock 21 (.45 ACP) as backup when I hunt.

What does a suicide using a .32 ACP have anything to do with a SD situation?

[rotor]

First, I hope I never have to find out. Rimfire anything though is always questionable as there are too many failures to go bang. The next question is which centerfire caliber is best. The reality depends of course on what one can carry, how many rounds, shot placement and ammo type. With modern .380 self defense ammo I believe it is adequate assuming one bad guy. Not too many small .380 have more than 7-8 round capacity and mag changes can be slow. A 1911 with 8 rounds that misses 8 times is not as effective as a fully loaded Glock 17 that hits 1/2 of the time.
Everything of course is a balance. I sometimes only carry a Kel-Tec P32. Is it adequate? .32ACP killed Hitler. Main thing is I would stay away from rimfire anything for self defense. I carry a Glock 21 (.45 ACP) as backup when I hunt.

What does a suicide using a .32 ACP have anything to do with a SD situation?

A properly placed shot of anything will kill. What's your point in asking?

[The Annoyed Man]

What's your experience with a 9 in a SD situation versus a 45?

When I first got my CHL, I carried .45 and .40 caliber weapons primarily.....and sometimes a .38 revolver. I eventually gave them all up for 9mm Glocks - because that’s what my wife carried - and a sometimes carried .357 revolver. I don’t feel particularly under-armed by carrying 9mm as opposed to .40 S&W or .45 ACP. The old saw is true......shot placement is king.

I have probably had more experience dealing with the treatment of gunshot patients than the average bear, unless one has been to war, or worked in an ER like I did. I saw probably hundreds of gunshot patients over the course of 5-6 years. The single most devastating pistol caliber gunshot wounds I ever saw were inflicted by a homeowner using a .41 magnum revolver on a couple of home invaders. One was DOA, the other died a hard death in our ICU about a week later. I saw more people killed with a .22 LR than any other caliber, by a good margin, but only one of them died instantly - having been shot through his descending aorta. Even those I saw who had been shot in the brain didn’t die instantaneously....although they may have been instantaneously incapacitated. But as a rule, far more of the gunshot patients I saw survived their being gunshot than died of their injuries - regardless of caliber used.

Handguns are not nearly as efficient for killing as are long guns....if killing is your goal. If stopping an attack in self-defense or in defense of another is your goal, a handgun is an appropriate tool....up to a point. You can stop someone pretty nearly instantaneously with a .22 .... if you hit them in the aorta or brain, but are you that good? I don’t think I am, so I’d rather use a heavier caliber than that.

I suspect that psychological incapacitation due to pain from GSW stops more attacks than actually physical incapacitation. In other words, the bad guy gets shot, it hurts a lot, he realizes that getting shot again will hurt a lot more, and he gives up. I also suspect that getting hit my a 9mm or .45 hurts a lot more than getting hit by a .22 or .25.

An old girlfriend of mine in high school was shot in the arm with a .22 while walking down the street with her brother. A kid living on that block was “playing sniper” in the attic of his house, and sighting on people through a dormer window as they walked down the sidewalk across the street from his house. He sighted on her and, not realizing that the rifle was loaded, pull the trigger and hit her in the side of her arm, about midway between shoulder and elbow. At first, she didn’t realize that she’d been shot. It was summertime, and she and her brother had been walking home from a municipal swimming pool. Her brother had been “popping” her with a towel as they walked along, and she had repeatedly told him to stop it. She felt a sudden stinging and burn in her arm and she turned and yelled at them ‘I told you to stop that!’ He said he didn’t do it, and that’s when she looked at her arm and saw the little round hole trickling a little bit of blood out of it.......and that was with a .22 rifle.

For whatever my advice is worth, I’d say get a Glock 43 - since you’re already familiar with the platform and caliber - and be done with it. Even though .380 is better than it used to be, i still regard it as a marginal caliber, and would choose a .38 Special over a .380 myself....but that’s just me. But I would not choose to carry a .22 unless I was pretty confident that I could instantly incapacitate someone with it. But pain alone from a .22 may not be enough to do the job.

[LTUME1978]

I have never fired a shot in self defense but I have talked to several SWAT officers from big cities (Houston and Dallas) that have each shot more than a few people in the line of duty. They all shoot 45 ACP. I asked why with all the talk of 9mm being the death ray now and the common answer is that the bad guys just go down faster when hit with a 45. Most were using 1911s but one had a Glock (don't remember the model number but that thing was physically BIG, I have short fingers and it was larger than I could comfortably hold/shoot). Paul Harrell has some videos on this (Charles Cotton mentioned him in a post here in the past and I ended up watching most of his videos, lots of good information). Paul actually has shot someone in self defense (he was using a 10 mm) and talks about that in one of his videos. If I recall correctly, he does not recommend using a 10mm for self defense now and explains that. He likes the 38 super in a 1911 a lot. Hope this helps.

[cheezit]

It all depends,
My wife is very comfortable with a .380, not so much with anything bigger. She also does very well with a full size steel frame .45, but it's not the most convenient thing to carry .44oz of firearm everywhere you go. A perfect example of why .380 is a great choice.

The best for stopping a threat in my opinion is .357, .41 or 10mm. Of the three choice .357 was listed as 97% effective if I remember correctly.
.41 and 10mm both come with a far greater risk of over penetration

[puma guy]

That the .22 Rimfire has no "knockdown" power can hardly be debated. That the .22 LR can and is often lethal is undeniable. The arguments regarding effectiveness of the .380 vs 9mm and everything else are plentiful on the internet. I have seen some test with .380 defensive rounds in ballistics gel that make a convincing case for use in SD/HD. I certainly wouldn't want to be shot with it. I have been shot in the abdomen with a .22 LRHP and can give you anecdotally the effectiveness of the bullet. Impact was like a very strong, but dull punch. Pain level was minimal. but I had a weird sensation in my belly and a slight feeling of nausea that did have some debilitating effect . I felt no burning sensation at the wound or internally. Though bleeding profusely I walked about two hundred yards to the car used to take me to a hospital, but I must tell you I hardly felt that I could have put up much of a fight. Medically the bullet caused extensive damage to both my small and large intestines. The bullet was headed for my liver, but bounced off my pelvic bone before striking there. A wound to the liver would have been fatal long before the intestinal damage would have killed me. That little 36gr piece of lead could have hit my spleen, but stopped before arriving there. Several hours of surgery to repair all the holes, penicillin shots every 4 hours for 9 days, plus some of the god awfullest concoction made to kill bacteria in the GI tract that they made drink the first three days kept me from getting peritonitis. Though I could drink and eat jello there was a tube pumping most everything out of my stomach for about half the time. Xrays every day to check the movement of the main part of the bullet to see if it would pass through the colon. (I still have a small piece floating around my belly that shows up on Xrays) I later sold guns and at the time all small center fire pistols .25 and .32ACP, .380's only had ball (FMJ) ammunition available. There was minimal information on what sort of effect those bullets had, but I remembered a story told to me by my hometown doctor who followed up my GSW to remove the stitches. He was in WWII and told me he treated a soldier who was shot with a .45ACP ball round in upper buttocks. The bullet passed through and exited his groin without striking any vitals or larger blood vessels. He stitched the two holes, put bandages on the wounds and told me after two days sent him to the brig. I also read a story about a doctor who was robbed at knife point of his medical bag containing drugs and he shot the perp twice with a .25ACO. The guy ran away. The doctor was quoted as saying he was going to get more powerful pistol ; a .32. LOL

I had many ladies come in wanting SD pistols and they invariably asked to see .25 Auto. I would show the pistol and ammo and answer their questions. Every once in a while one would ask to see the "larger" pistol , a .32. I would then show them a little .22 High Standard 9 shot Sentinel with a 2 inch barrel; explaining the .22 had more muzzle energy that the .25ACP and .22 was made with HP ammo available. I had a little dissertation ready to explain how to load the cylinder with a couple of .22 LR rat shot rounds followed by 7 .22 LR. How the cylinder should be oriented so that they first two shots could be fired at a bad guys face most likely making it impossible to see and if that didn't stop him they pretty much could have their way with him as he lashed about. They almost always bought the .25 auto.

Now days with improved ammo and bullets I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to those ladies a small semi auto, but the minimum would be a .380. That's what my wife carries. She has a 9mm Shield, but just doesn't have the hand strength to consistently rack it. We settle on a locked breech - the Glock 42. I wanted her to select the SIG .238. but she shot and manipulated the G42 more effectively and accurately. I also often carry a S&W Bodyguard. So if you've made it this far ( I do tend to be a bit wordy) you know why I have come to think of the .380 as an adequate SD/HD round.

I'll end with some humor. During my short time as an EMT, about two years, we used to joke that the deadliest pistol was a small, micro barreled .22 semi-auto fired on a dead run by a jealous wife at her cheating husband 50 yards ahead of her. One pill directly in the back of the head.

[The Annoyed Man]

Puma guy, your stories about selling .25 auto pistols reminds me of that famous quote by the late Col. Jeff Cooper, who said:

[C]arry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you.

Cooper also said that a .25 wasn’t sufficient to clear one’s sinuses, let along anything else.

If I had to choose between a .25 and a .22 LR, I’d take the .22 for sure.

Perhaps another consideration might be the Keltec PMR-30 in .22 Magnum. Go to http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321, and scroll down until you see the post from “opiodergics-ga” beginning with

“My name is Jesse (online name Danny Bishop). I myself was shot--in the chest--on November 27th, 1994, at point-blank range with a .22" magnum revolver”

The poster describes in some detail the injuries he suffered, what it felt like to be shot by that round, and permanent impact it had on his life..... which is not good.

And that was a “mere” .22 magnum.

No pun intended, but it really is a hit or miss thing. Like I said above, I’ve seen people killed by .22s, and I’ve held a conversation with someone who had been shot through the right ventricle with a 9mm and was still alert, oriented, and talking.