Empty chamber carry?

[03Lightningrocks]

Since I don't live in a cops and robbers movie, I always have and always will carry with one in the chamber. I love watching these movies and counting how many times they rack the slide in the same scene involving a single assailant. Usually at least two... LOL.

In the movies, "racking the slide" is psychological. It means, "I'm getting serious now!"

And if you make me get Really Serious, then I'll cock the hammer too!

Hahaha... yeah... I forgot about that part. Bawaaahahahaha

[puma guy]

Carrying with an empty chamber with the expectation a round can be jacked in when needed is like not wearing a seat belt and putting it upon impact! Just ain't gonna work, Bippie!

[JustSomeOldGuy]

Guy sounds like an amateur. Needs to find a good belly band holster to wear under his scrubs in lieu of pocket carry at work......

[carlson1]

Carrying on an empty chamber as already been said is carrying an empty gun. The same thought as I will put my seatbelt on right before I crash.


Hope it works out.

[Rafe]

Since I don't live in a cops and robbers movie, I always have and always will carry with one in the chamber. I love watching these movies and counting how many times they rack the slide in the same scene involving a single assailant. Usually at least two... LOL.

In the movies, "racking the slide" is psychological. It means, "I'm getting serious now!"

Don't forget my favorite: the pump shotgun. In some scenes the trusty pump will cycle for the familiar, intimidating sound that means, "I'm really, really serious now"...and cycle, and cycle again. Yet nary a single shell is ever ejected from the shotgun.

Hollywood. Where expert knowledge of firearms and Alec Baldwin are synonymous.

Carrying on an empty chamber as already been said is carrying an empty gun. The same thought as I will put my seatbelt on right before I crash.

It might even be more like falling in an elevator with a broken cable and no brakes, hurtling into the basement floors...and deciding you'll jump up as high as you can just before the impact.

[ScottDLS]

A better question to the empty chamber carry proponents is WHY? What purpose does it serve?

[Rafe]

A better question to the empty chamber carry proponents is WHY? What purpose does it serve?

I'd have to say that, historically, the answer I've seen to that question is along the lines of, "it's an extra safety measure."

Depending on my mood, I might be likely to respond with, "Whose safety? Yours or the violent criminal actor about to kill you?"

One thing I like about this board is that we have a number of very experienced instructors who talk regularly about things like force-on-force training. My familiarity is much more limited, but in many instances I've found that a big hurdle for a lot of people new (or not even new, but previously focused on, say, game hunting only) to firearms is that there's tunnel vision on the gun, on the tool.

But gunfighting is less about the gun than it is about fighting.

From a self-defense perspective, the last time we saw it be all about the gun was roughly around the late 1700s to about 1840 when formal duels using flintlock pistols were prevalent. It was considered dishonorable if you took more than 3 or 4 seconds to get off your shot...a time in which, if you wanted to be truly dishonorable, you could have sprinted the distance to your opponent and simply bludgeoned him with your flintlock.

And only in the movies was the notion perpetuated of gunslingers in the Old West standing in one place at high noon and drawing down. Nope. That's why they carried their single-action revolvers with flattened hammers: get it out of the leather in an Alec Baldwin finger-on-the-trigger move, start moving so the other guy missed you, and start fanning the hammer and hope you hit him before your six rounds were expended.

We all know about the Tueller Drill, first published in SWAT magazine back in 1983. Mythbusters even did a re-creation in a 2012 episode. In that one, they used 20 feet instead of 21 and, with the shooter ready and one in the chamber, the soonest anyone got a shot off was just was the knife wielder got to him, and that wasn't a majority of the time; 100% of the time at a distance less than 20 feet, the shooter was always stabbed before he could get off a round.

There have been numerous studies done dealing with law enforcement officers and data relating to distances in officer involved shootings. Some numbers in a moment, but I believe it's a safe assumption that law-abiding, non-LEO carriers will not only tend to be--but by law more or less have to be--less prepared than uniformed law enforcement officers. This isn't about training; it's more that a LEO can obtain a master grip on his or her weapon in a given scenario long before it would be permissible for a non-LEO civilian to do so. And we also have to consider that most non-LEO handgun carriers do so with the firearm concealed.

Truth is, a scenario where the bad guy who requires your gun be drawn is standing a clear-shot 10 or 15 yards from you is going to be rare. Before you can reliably determine the threat is truly a deadly threat to you or others, he's probably going to be much closer.

I don't know if the FBI abandoned the LEOKA program (Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted; https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/) or not, but the last data are from 2019. But in 2016 Marcus Young, then an instructor with the LEOKA program, compiled data from 1985 through 2014. Some numbers:

• Between 1985 and 2014, 69.7% of officers murdered with firearms in the line of duty were shot within 0 to 10 feet of the perpetrators.
• Of those incidents, 50.9% were events where offenders within 0 to 5 feet killed officers with firearms.
• Between 2005 and 2014, 62.2% of officers murdered with firearms in the line of duty were shot within 0 to 10 feet of perpetrators.
• Of those incidents, 44.8% were events where offenders within 0 to 5 feet killed officers with firearms.
• When the distance to the perpetrator increased to 11 to 20 feet, 1985 to 2014 accounted for 12.4% of the murders; that number was down up 2005-2014 to 14.4%.
• Distances of 21 feet and greater, by contrast, accounted for only 14% of all officer murders between 1985 and 2014, and 13.1% between 2005 and 2014.
• When the distance was known to be over 50 feet--less than 17 yards--the numbers were 5.9% for 1985-2014, and 5.8% for 2005-2024
• Statistics regarding distance were only tracked for officers murdered with firearms, but of the 1,880 total victim officers between 1985 through 2014 the statistics show that in addition to the 1,665 officers killed with firearms, 19 were killed with knives or other cutting instruments, 12 with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, feet), and 10 with blunt objects.

Inside 20 feet--and even more so inside 10 feet--self-defense involves a very different mindset, preparation, and training than does a "take careful aim and fire" at 10 yards.

You're at a point where milliseconds count. And the odds are pretty good that you won't even have time to get your off-hand on the gun, much less have time to rack the slide. You may need that hand to fend off an attack while you can bring your gun into play...or maintain retention of your gun.

Never mind that--let's think about Alec Baldwin again and his example of trigger control even when he isn't under life-or-death stress--trying to add the unnecessary mechanical operation of manually cycling a slide, I believe, actually introduces a greater chance of a negligent discharge.

Just my humble but lengthy opinion.

[carlson1]

My question is if you carry on an empty chamber what do you do with a revolver. In fact it would be better for you to carry a revolver than a pistol without a round in the chamber. I have went back to carrying a revolver most of the time anymore. A speed loader or speed strip for reloads. Before you say something about the rounds in a revolver every gun goes empty at some point. Seven rounds, seventy rounds, or a bucket of ammo they all go empty at some point. Practice and be efficient at reloading.

[ScottDLS]

A better question to the empty chamber carry proponents is WHY? What purpose does it serve?

...
Just my humble but lengthy opinion.

Thank you for a very detailed and informative response. I have no idea why anyone would choose to carry a semi handgun and leave it unloaded (aka without a round in the chamber). It makes no sense to me. I carry a .380 Walther PPK for defense in a pocket holster. There are better self defense pistols, no doubt. But after trying many different guns, I found this is the one that I will carry and pocket carry is the only way that I will consistently and comfortably carry concealed. A full size Glock in my glove box does me no good. And as cool as it looks (to me), OC of a full size just doesn't work in most of the places I go.

One part of carrying my Walther I am still thinking about is weather to leave the safety on. Currently I do. It can be switched to fire with my right thumb (pushing up). However, after practicing at the range, I've begun to wonder if the extra step would hinder my reaction in a self defense situation. Drawing from a pocket is already not ideal, but that's the way I carry. The double action pull on the Walther is very heavy, though with practice I have gotten better at getting off the first DA shot. I've also thought of cocking the hammer with my thumb while drawing as well. In this scenario the safety might also be a distraction. Right now I keep my gun in the glove box of my car while driving, or if I'm going in somewhere I can't carry. That's another reason why I leave the safety on...in case someone got at the gun in the glove box whether a passenger mistakenly or a bad actor.

Anyway I'm still thinking on it.

[LDB415]

Excellent discussions. I can't see any added safety for anyone other than the criminal needing to be shot.

[RPBrown]

My question is if you carry on an empty chamber what do you do with a revolver. In fact it would be better for you to carry a revolver than a pistol without a round in the chamber. I have went back to carrying a revolver most of the time anymore. A speed loader or speed strip for reloads. Before you say something about the rounds in a revolver every gun goes empty at some point. Seven rounds, seventy rounds, or a bucket of ammo they all go empty at some point. Practice and be efficient at reloading.

My wife initially had a issue with carrying with one in the chamber until I showed her the time elapsed in 21 feet. She agreed but was still uncomfortable with it. Then arthritis set into her hands and she could no longer work the slide, either to charge or to release. I moved her into a revolver and she carries on an empty chamber but still has the pull trigger and shoot option and mentality.
With that, I gained a P938

[chasfm11]

I was fortunate to attend one of the weekend sessions that Charles sponsored at the Pearland Shooting Club just after I got my then CHL. One of the classes in that weekend was retention shooting. It was eye-opening for me. That I could actually draw and fire one handed without looking where I was shooting was initially scary. But I still practice what i was taught in that class.

Never mind the Tueller distance, it is possible that an assailant already has hands on me. I learned when attending an initial marshal arts class that at my age and physical fitness level, I'm no match for a younger person in a very close up encounter. If I'm being physically attacked at that level, I'm going to do everything that I can to protect myself and sort out whether shooting someone was the best choice later. Shooting from retention is extremely difficult without a chambered round. I've seen videos which show a way to rack a slide on a holster one handed but I've never had any success at doing that. I'm not sure that I could muster all the physical movements to do that under the best circumstances let along when some has laid hands on me. I've judged it to be a 50-50 chance that my encounter with a BG will have hands on m since I work really hard a situational awareness and actively avoiding people in locations that appear in the slightest way to be "sketchy"

[Mike S]

My take is those who proffer the opinion that empty chamber carry is "safer" lack the baseline skills to trust themselves to not have a negligent discharge, and institutionalize this into their EDC routine rather than training to overcome their lack of confidence to safely carry with a round in the chamber. When others who also lack confidence hear this as an option, it reinforces via confirmation bias that 'its okay to carry without a round in the chamber '.

The article has quite a bit of anxiety within it, citing that 'kids may come up and hug' him, and other such events where there seems to be an unwarranted concern that the gun will just go off on it's own..

My advice is:
- always carry the handgun with a round in the chamber. If one doesn't feel comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, that is okay. It's a sign that they lack confidence in their own skills and need more time to develop a baseline such as muzzle awareness & trigger finger discipline. They need to train until they're confident enough to carry daily, with a round in the chamber.

- they may also lack confidence in their EDC gun, holster, & techniques. Again, practice & replace those items or techniques that are substandard.

- for those who adhere to the"Israeli Method " & carry with an empty chamber, that's okay too. They are responsible for their own safety, and if they find themselves in a bind where they have their support -side hand occupied & can't "jack the slide"...well, they have the rest of their lives to figure out how to get the slide cycled to load a round, or else resort to hand-to-hand skills, perhaps using the unloaded gun as a blunt force object to open up their workspace... To each their own.

((And I used the term 'jack the slide ' as a dig at the author of the linked article; I personally would use the phrase 'rack the slide '.)).

- for those who teach the Israeli Method, please don't. There's enough bad advice & fad teachings out there.

- if one has to disarm for whatever reason & feels that it's best for them to clear the chamber before securing the gun in a glove box, go with what your gut is telling you. For me, I unclip & remove the entire holster so that the gun never leaves the holster when having to disarm temporarily. This minimizes the "exposure" time for potential observation by someone walking by that I didn't see when doing a quick 360* scan, and also keeps the trigger guard secured in the holster while in the glove box/gun safe in the console. When getting back in the vehicle, rearming is simply reattaching the holster to my belt without the need to cycle the gun to reload.

But, to each their own level of comfort with regards to safety. If you have to disarm and leave the gun alone with others in a vehicle who should not have unsupervised access, then unloading the gun & taking the magazine with you, or separating the gun & magazine into separate locked compartments, may be absolutely prudent.

- regarding the use of the thumb safety, I would recommend either not having one/not using it for modern striker fired guns with stock triggers, or if using a DA/SA pistol to carry in DA with the safety off (this relies on the stiffness & length of pull of the DA trigger to mitigate a negligent discharge).

With any method, trigger finger discipline and use of a quality holster is paramount. ((NEVER TOUCH the trigger at Positions 1, 2, & 3 of the draw stoke; once you are committed to taking the shot you can touch & prep the trigger AFTER leaving Position 3 on the way to Position 4, but the finger MUST BE OFF the trigger well before returning to Position 3)).

With DA/SA, my recommendations are to focus training sessions initially on DA engagements, decocking after a single shot presentation, with enough repetitions that the first shot (in DA) becomes the baseline. Once the DA presentation is mastered, incorporating the SA follow up shots in the string is easy. Just remember to decock when bringing the gun from full presentation at Position 4 back to Position 3, well before reholstering.

Of course, if it's a SA-only style of handgun, it should be cocked & locked, meaning the safety is on with a round in the chamber.

Manipulation of the safety on & off without affecting the grip is critical, thumbing the safety off either at Position 3, or while presenting out from Position 3 to 4. When the engagement is complete, thumbing the safety back on while moving from Position 4 back to 3, then reacquiring the grip in case a reengagement is needed.

For thumb positioning on a safety, I'd recommend having your thumb rest on whichever side of the safety lever will allow a smooth 'taking off of safe' action, then keeping it there during the engagement ((Example: if 'safe' is with the safety lever in the 'up' position, rest your thumb on top of the Safety so that compressing the thumb during presentation with disengage the safety, and continue to loosely rest the thumb on top of the safety to prevent the thumb from inadvertently engaging the safety during recoil. Flip the thumb to the bottom of the safety lever when done engaging to put it back on safe, but immediately restage the thumb on the top of the safety in case an immediate re-presentation on target is needed. If 'Safe' is in the down position on your gun, just flip the above process for where to stage your thumb)).

And, it is important to know any idiosyncrasies of your handgun's safety. For example, most handguns you will be able to simultaneously prep the trigger during the presentation from 3 to 4 AND flip the safety off; with the M&P EZ however if you prep the trigger before disengaging the safety you will have a dead trigger.

In the end, trigger finger discipline and muzzle awareness are key factors of firearms safety.

[Rafe]

I was fortunate to attend one of the weekend sessions that Charles sponsored at the Pearland Shooting Club just after I got my then CHL. One of the classes in that weekend was retention shooting. It was eye-opening for me. That I could actually draw and fire one handed without looking where I was shooting was initially scary. But I still practice what i was taught in that class.

Was that the TXCHL Forum Day back in 2010?

[chasfm11]

Was that the TXCHL Forum Day back in 2010?

Yes. I had just gotten my plastic in August so it was a real eye opening experience for me.