Road rage incident

[Dougmyers5]

Road rage incident in east Oak Cliff ends in death of boy, 15

09:41 PM CST on Friday, November 23, 2007
By STEVE THOMPSON / The Dallas Morning News
stevethompson@dallasnews.com

A man shot and killed a 15-year-old boy in east Oak Cliff early Friday during a road rage incident in which each pulled a gun on the other.

Anthony Gray, 30, told police he was heading home along Marsalis Avenue about 3:45 a.m. when the teenager, Frank Vega, cut him off in a 2004 Cadillac.

The two exchanged words at the stoplight where Marsalis meets Saner Avenue. Either at the stoplight or soon after, both men pulled out handguns. Mr. Gray fired multiple shots, and a bullet hit the teenager in the chest.

The teen's Cadillac ran off the road nearly a mile away near Overton Road. Mr. Gray pulled off the road and called 911.

"We don't know who displayed a weapon first, but both were armed, and we believe it could be a case of self-defense," said Sgt. Bruce McDonald, a Dallas police homicide supervisor.

Authorities say the teenager did not fire his weapon.

Police plan to refer the case to a grand jury.

Mr. Gray could not be reached for comment.

"It's sad that we have a 15-year-old out on the street at that time of the morning armed," Sgt. McDonald said.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 5f404.html

[frankie_the_yankee]

I wonder if Gray has a CHL or if he was carrying under the new law allowing unlicensed car carry.

The kid was obviously too young to drive. But is there a lower age limit in TX law for possession or, in this case carrying, a handgun? I'm not sure but I think not.

This should be interesting for the DA and GJ. Gray might well claim self defense under the new 'Castle Doctrine' law. But the case will hinge on whether his "exchanging words" with the kid will be considered to be an escalation of the conflict on his part.

It looks like it might depend on who said what to whom. And the kid isn't around to give his side of the story.

I think the guy walks, but just barely.

This case has the potential to foster criticism of both the car carry law and Castle Doctrine.

Not good.

[Dougmyers5]

A person cant own a hand gun or have one without adult supervision until age 21 in Texas.
Could be some parents in trouble for their dead kid having their hand gun.

[frankie_the_yankee]

A person cant own a hand gun or have one without adult supervision until age 21 in Texas.
Could be some parents in trouble for their dead kid having their hand gun.

I'd say more likely the kid was a 'banger and that the parent(s) aren't involved - in more ways than one.

But I'm not so sure about the 21 business. I think you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun, but simple possession is different.

[Originalist]

I am not sure about minimum age requirements but in Texas an Active Duty Military person can obtain a CHL at 18, meaning they can effectively carry a hundgun just not purchase one. Federal law is what prohibits them from purchasing a handgun until age 21.


caviat - If I am wrong someone please correct me.

[txinvestigator]

A person cant own a hand gun or have one without adult supervision until age 21 in Texas.
Could be some parents in trouble for their dead kid having their hand gun.

Negative. Texas does not restirct the age of firearms ownership except for this;

Texas Penal Code
§ 46.13. MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD. (a) In
this section:
(1) "Child" means a person younger than 17 years of
age.
(2) "Readily dischargeable firearm" means a firearm
that is loaded with ammunition, whether or not a round is in the
chamber.
(3) "Secure" means to take steps that a reasonable
person would take to prevent the access to a readily dischargeable
firearm by a child, including but not limited to placing a firearm
in a locked container or temporarily rendering the firearm
inoperable by a trigger lock or other means.
(b) A person commits an offense if a child gains access to a
readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal
negligence:
(1) failed to secure the firearm; or
(2) left the firearm in a place to which the person
knew or should have known the child would gain access.
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the child's access to the firearm:
(1) was supervised by a person older than 18 years of
age and was for hunting, sporting, or other lawful purposes;
(2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people
or property;
(3) was gained by entering property in violation of
this code; or
(4) occurred during a time when the actor was engaged
in an agricultural enterprise.

[frankie_the_yankee]

So other than driving without a license, is the kid illegal carrying a handgun with him in the car?

[KC5AV]

Isn't it illegal to make a loaded handgun available to a 'child' under the age of 17?

[frankie_the_yankee]

Isn't it illegal to make a loaded handgun available to a 'child' under the age of 17?

Maybe it is for the person who "made it available".

But that's not exactly the same thing as my question, which was, "..is it illegal for the kid to have it with him in the car?". Especially after SEP-01 with the new car carry law.

[CompVest]

Did the kid have legal possession of the car? Did he have a legal drivers license at 15 years old? If he didn't I don't think he could legally have a gun in the car.

[KBCraig]

So other than driving without a license, is the kid illegal carrying a handgun with him in the car?

What's the penalty for driving without a license? If it's higher than Class C, then yes, it would be illegal. If not, then no.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Did the kid have legal possession of the car? Did he have a legal drivers license at 15 years old? If he didn't I don't think he could legally have a gun in the car.

Don't know if the kid had legal possession of the car (meaning whether it was stolen or not). I do not think you need a license to have legal possession of an automobile. If someone (legal owner or in legal possession) allowed him to drive it, I would say he had legal possession.

I don't think there is anything in the car carry law about having a drivers license. I think it just says you can't be a 'banger, can't be someone who is prohibited by law from possessing a gun, and can't be committing some other crime besides a traffic violation or other Class C misdemeanor.

[Dougmyers5]

AGE RESTRICTIONS ON FIREARMS
TRANSACTIONS
Youth Handgun Safety Act
Recently mailings went to the licensees providing
for poster requirements and handbill delivery
requirements of an explanation brochure to
handgun transferees from Federal firearms
licensees. These mailings led to some confusion
within the industry. No change has been made to
the age restrictions pertaining to Federal firearms
licensees transferring firearms. If the firearm
being transferred is other than a rifle or shotgun
[27 CFR § 178.99(b) & 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1)],
then the purchaser must be 21 years of age or
older. It the firearm is a rifle or shotgun then the
purchaser must be 18 years of age or older.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fflnews_pub/ffl0299.pdf

[flintknapper]

AGE RESTRICTIONS ON FIREARMS
TRANSACTIONS
Youth Handgun Safety Act
Recently mailings went to the licensees providing
for poster requirements and handbill delivery
requirements of an explanation brochure to
handgun transferees from Federal firearms
licensees. These mailings led to some confusion
within the industry. No change has been made to
the age restrictions pertaining to Federal firearms
licensees transferring firearms. If the firearm
being transferred is other than a rifle or shotgun
[27 CFR § 178.99(b) & 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1)],
then the purchaser must be 21 years of age or
older. It the firearm is a rifle or shotgun then the
purchaser must be 18 years of age or older.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fflnews_pub/ffl0299.pdf

I think the issue here may be one of legal "possession" not "purchase".

[KBCraig]

AGE RESTRICTIONS ON FIREARMS
TRANSACTIONS
Youth Handgun Safety Act

That's a federal law concerning purchases from licensed dealers. It has nothing to do with possession, and no bearing on the state laws regarding legal carry.