Carrying a Colt Defender ??

[WildBill]

But, and my memory may be failing me again, didn't JMB only add the grip safety at the insistence of the military?

I don't believe this is true. The grip safety is on the Browning's patent for the 1911. The size and shape may have been modified by the military.

[Mike1951]

I cannot find verification of my statement about the safety, so I withdraw it.

I may have been thinking about the minor changes made between the 1911 and the 1911A1.

[KBCraig]

Perhaps you're thinking of the Model 1900, Model 1902, or Model 1905.

[O6nop]

Personally, I don't see how you can cock the hammer on a 1911 with one hand, the beavertail gets in the way. I may be uncoordinated but I did try it with an unloaded gun. The angle also makes it difficult to do that. Being an uncoordinated movement, it's possible to accidentally put your finger on the trigger while pulling the hammer back thereby causing a discharge. The presence of the beavertail, to me, makes this action difficult and I would never reccommend it.

The other issue, dropping the hammer on a live round is a bad habit in my mind, but that's just me.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Personally, I don't see how you can cock the hammer on a 1911 with one hand, the beavertail gets in the way. I may be uncoordinated but I did try it with an unloaded gun. The angle also makes it difficult to do that. Being an uncoordinated movement, it's possible to accidentally put your finger on the trigger while pulling the hammer back thereby causing a discharge. The presence of the beavertail, to me, makes this action difficult and I would never reccommend it.

The other issue, dropping the hammer on a live round is a bad habit in my mind, but that's just me.

While all true 1911s have a grip-safety, not all have one of the "Beavertail" type found on many, if not most, modern 1911s. The shorter spurs found original format 1911 grip-safeties might allow some folks to use their thumb to cock the hammer. Regardless, I never recommend using a thumb to cock the hammer on a 1911.

[rm9792]

Personally, I don't see how you can cock the hammer on a 1911 with one hand, the beavertail gets in the way. I may be uncoordinated but I did try it with an unloaded gun. The angle also makes it difficult to do that. Being an uncoordinated movement, it's possible to accidentally put your finger on the trigger while pulling the hammer back thereby causing a discharge. The presence of the beavertail, to me, makes this action difficult and I would never reccommend it.

The other issue, dropping the hammer on a live round is a bad habit in my mind, but that's just me.

How could you possibly pul the trigger while thumbing the hammer? Grip safety. If your thumb is up on the hammer then you cant be pushing in on the grip safety. You are correct it is a very akward movement if already drawn and pointed. Try it with it in the holster and the trigger is still covered. Your hand is in an unnatural position of being over the pistol. As you are drawing you are also placing the thumb on the hammer and pulling down while pistol is coming up into play. Once the pistol is in front and coming on target your hand is getting into position with finger alongside the trigger guard in a ready position. This does require practice (lots) to perform smoothly, strong hands and a large grip.

Never drop a hammer on a live round unless you want to fire. You gently lower into place, I said gently, firm grip, no thumbing like a movie actor, use two hands.

[G.C.Montgomery]

This is my last post on the Condition 2 subject within this thread. WildBill, I don’t think you are picking on me and I understand your desire for specific references. I’ve tried but failed to find such references on the Errornet since I saw your post. I also saw seeker_two’s post that Browning designed his pistols to be carried in Condition 2 but, I can’t find references to verify that either. I’m not going to spend the weekend looking for Browning’s opinion because it’s not necessarily relevant.

It's well known that engineers and designers are soemtimes not experts on the practical use of their own creations. Where the 1911 and John Browning are concerned, even if Browning intended it to be carried in Condition 2, we know he wasn’t a professional soldier, police officer or gunfighter. He made his living as an engineer. On the other hand, we have nearly 100 years of practical experience from several generations of soldiers, police officers and gunmen who have carried the 1911 since its introduction. Theory is fine but personally, I’m more interested in the opinions and experiences of the guys who actually use the equipment in an environment beyond that of a square range.

I want to throw out some thoughts on the terminology for a second. IIRC, the Condition 1/2/3 terminology was an invention of Jeff Cooper and it applied primarily to the 1911. As such, the terms don’t relate well to revolvers or auto-loading pistols based on other operating systems such as Beretta’s 92/96 series, the Glock or Sig pistols. When I started shooting stuff other than the 1911, I came to the opinion that Cooper’s terminology was flawed, non-descriptive and confusing. When I started training with John Farnam and Brian Hoffner, I found they shared that opinion and they and other instructors actually use far more descriptive terms (engagement, carry, transport and storage modes). Still, in mixed company, when discussing the 1911, I continue to use the old terminology because most folks are familiar with it. Anyway, back to this Condition 2 business.

Proof of concept comes from attempting to apply said concept in the real world under a variety of conditions. RM9792 said of Condition 2, “If it is slower it is by milliseconds…� That says to me he has never actually tested the concept to prove it one way or the other. Even if he has tested it this method, I have little use for a system in which safety hinges on the availability of two hands. There is a good chance that you might not have two hands available to you before, during or after a defensive shooting. Further, we always say the key to any system is proper training…Fine. Now, please show me one instructor who actually recommends and uses Condition 2. And if you’ve got one, please invite him to the next CHL Forum Day.

As I mentioned earlier, I’ve trained with John Farnam and Brian Hoffner among others. While I have a bunch of pieces of paper on my wall from a bunch of schools that say I’m an firearms instructor, I continue to see myself as a student. So, I’ve also attended courses with a dozen other instructors during the last ten years. While we continue the debate on this board, I find it interesting that not one instructor I’ve met has recommended Condition 2 carry. Nearly all recommend and use Condition 1. The lone exception that comes to mind is an Israeli program that recommended Condition 3. That program has its roots in the earliest days of the Israeli Defense Force when the sidearms they had simply weren’t safe to carry in any other condition. I’ve watched more recent Israeli diplomatic protection personnel in training and it appears even they have abandoned this approach.

So in closing, we can debate this subject all day long and never change the minds of those who've made up their minds. But the debate is not for them, it's for the benefit of those who don't know and are seeking answers. Some day we may find specific references to John Browning’s intention confirming one opinion or another. In the meantime, we live in the real world. The fact is, you’ll find far more folks with verifiable real world experience and credentials recommending Condition 1 than any other condition with respect to the 1911. With all due respect to John Browning, I’m remain much more interested in what today’s gunmen have learned as a result of practical experience during the past 100 years rather than Browning's theories. YMMV

[WildBill]

This is my last post on the Condition 2 subject within this thread.

It's well known that engineers and designers are soemtimes not experts on the practical use of their own creations. Where the 1911 and John Browning are concerned, even if Browning intended it to be carried in Condition 2, we know he wasn’t a professional soldier, police officer or gunfighter.

So in closing, we can debate this subject all day long and never change the minds of those who've made up their minds. But the debate is not for them, it's for the benefit of those who don't know and are seeking answers. YMMV

G.C. - Thanks for the excellent post. Browning designed the 1911 for the soldier, not the police officer or gunfighter. So maybe he didn't anticipate that use. I also agree that the "condition" descriptions invented by Cooper aren't meant to be used outside the scope of the 1911.

[rm9792]

Proof of concept comes from attempting to apply said concept in the real world under a variety of conditions. RM9792 said of Condition 2, “If it is slower it is by milliseconds…� That says to me he has never actually tested the concept to prove it one way or the other. Even if he has tested it this method, I have little use for a system in which safety hinges on the availability of two hands. There is a good chance that you might not have two hands available to you before, during or after a defensive shooting. Further, we always say the key to any system is proper training…Fine. Now, please show me one instructor who actually recommends and uses Condition 2. And if you’ve got one, please invite him to the next CHL Forum Day.

I am willing to let this horse die as well. But I want to correct quotes attributed to me. I did say i have practiced both methods for years and neither is demonstrably faster. When I made the milliseconds comment I was conceding that Con 1 may be faster and will agree to that. So the concept has been and continues to be tested by me. YMMV. Safety will never hinge on two hands before, during or after a defensive shooting, I never stated that. The only time 2 hands were required was in the safety of my bedroom when I loaded, charged, and safely lowered the hammer down while pointing in a safe direction. Before a shooting only 1 hand is required to draw and cock the pistol, during is obvious and afterwards you are free to Con 1 the gun and holster till later, all while your weak hand is in your pocket or wherever.
I will concede that no instructor on the planet advises Con2 because they all teach as they have been taught and adhere to the established doctrine, same with LEO and other professionals. Even if one did think it was better he would never teach it as he would open himself up the ridicule and bashing I have. Generations have not tested Con2 IMO because they have all been taught 1 is the best and no one has told me why up to this point. I have only heard because Cooper says so and no statistical data to back up Con 2 being unsafe.

[carlson1]

Excellent post G.C. Montgomery!

[KD5NRH]

One does NOT lower the hammer on a revolver with a loaded chamber.

Uh, then how does one render a cocked revolver safe? Neither my M&P nor my Blackhawk will allow anything to be done other than lowering the hammer at that point.

Also, I would refer you to page 16 of the "Instruction manual for Ruger® New Model Blackhawk®, Super Blackhawk®, Hunter & Bisley Single Action Revolvers:"

TO ‘UNCOCK’ (DECOCK) THE REVOLVER
If your revolver is cocked, and you wish to let the hammer down to its forward
position (against the frame), proceed as follows: USE EXTREME CARE WHEN
ATTEMPTING TO DECOCK THE REVOLVER, AS THE THUMB SLIPPING
DURING THIS PROCESS CAN RESULT IN AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE IF
THE TRIGGER IS HELD TO THE REAR.
1. Make certain that the revolver is pointing in a safe direction (See Rule 2, Page
39).
2. Make certain both hands are dry and not impeded in any way – gloves,
bandages, cold, etc.
3. Grasp the revolver (if right handed) so that the thumb and forefinger of your
left hand are firmly holding the frame, forward of the trigger guard. Thus,
your left hand is in full control of the revolver (See Figure a, below).
4. Place your right thumb firmly on the hammer spur and, with your thumb
securely in control of the hammer, squeeze the trigger only enough to permit
the hammer to ‘break free’ of the trigger. At that instant, IMMEDIATELY
RELEASE THE TRIGGER and then slowly permit the hammer, STILL SECURE
UNDER YOUR THUMB, to move fully forward to its resting position against
the frame. NOTE: It is imperative that finger pressure be removed from the
trigger just as soon as it is free of the hammer. Then, properly, the trigger and
hammer will move towards their fully forward rest positions together (See
Figure b, below).
Practice this important gun handling skill with an unloaded revolver until you
have developed the proper control and ‘touch’ to decock your revolver safely. The
key to safe decocking is having the weight of the revolver controlled with one
hand, while the thumb and forefinger of the ‘shooting hand’ control the hammer
and trigger.

[O6nop]

How could you possibly pul the trigger while thumbing the hammer? Grip safety. If your thumb is up on the hammer then you cant be pushing in on the grip safety. You are correct it is a very akward movement if already drawn and pointed. Try it with it in the holster and the trigger is still covered. Your hand is in an unnatural position of being over the pistol. As you are drawing you are also placing the thumb on the hammer and pulling down while pistol is coming up into play. Once the pistol is in front and coming on target your hand is getting into position with finger alongside the trigger guard in a ready position. This does require practice (lots) to perform smoothly, strong hands and a large grip.

Once during a controlled practice session while trying to learn to draw and shoot with the opposite hand as if your gun hand has been wounded. this means drawing across your body and since I have a 1911, I had to flip the thumb safety to fire. I'm right handed so I had to shoot left handed. When I tried to flip the safety I had to cross my thumb over to the same side as my trigger finger. In doing so, as I flipped the safety (very awkward!) and my middle finger slipped inside the trigger guard and fired. I'd think the grip safety would be even less likely to be depressed in that situation. Since then, I have installed a ambi-safety - problem solved. I know it's not the same scenario, but it seems relevant to me since I tried your method with an empty gun.

I also think that there are enough tactics that need 'lots of practice' that there doesn't need any awkward techniques added.

I wouldn't mind continuing the discussion, but you are determined in your method. Good luck with it, and maybe I'll try it a few more times before dismissing it.

[txinvestigator]

One does NOT lower the hammer on a revolver with a loaded chamber.

Uh, then how does one render a cocked revolver safe? Neither my M&P nor my Blackhawk will allow anything to be done other than lowering the hammer at that point.

.

[/quote]


There is no need to cock a modern double action revolver. Regardless of what the manual says, it is unsafe to do so. I grew up on revolvers back in the late '60s and early '70s. Cocking a revolver would you head slapped by any competent hander or instructor.

[rm9792]

I agree it wont work well with a wounded gun hand. I dont see any way to fix that either. i am not determined at all and would love to find new ways to do things. I just dont like Con 1 carry on a daily basis because I have personally witnessed factory sears fail, safetys break and come down off safe, etc. If I have to go into a known bad situation then i would go Con 1 without a doubt but back to Con 2 when safety permits. I am not stubborn or stuck in my ways but I like proof and experience over conjecture and emotion. Very few here believe in Con 2 therefore dont test it, try it or practice with it so their opinions are based on theory and others opinions. I am one who likes to see for myself and test things like this out.
I do need to practice cross draw, weak draw, etc. Thanks for reminding me.

[WildBill]

I grew up on revolvers back in the late '60s and early '70s. Cocking a revolver would you head slapped by any competent hander or instructor.

Back then, most people were trained to load only 5 shots in a 6-shot revolver, so there was no reason to decock on a loaded cylinder.

Back then, SA shooting with a DA revolver was an accepted practice for target shooters [as it is today]. Because of safety concerns, law enforcement started to train officers to shoot DA only. BTW - The Ruger Blackhawk is a single action revolver.

Back then, I never got head-slapped when I cocked my revolver, so I must have had incompetent NRA-certified instructors.

In order to avoid an AD, a competent instructor should inflict a head slap only after the firing line is clear.