.45 ACP Hardball

[JLaw]

Read an interesting article in the Feb. '06 issue of Combat Hangguns. It was titled "Maximizing the M1911 .45 ACP", written by Chuck Taylor. Without re-typing the whole article, I'll touch base on the interesting points. Remember here that he's discussing maximizing the 1911 by using the right ammunition for the particular gun, basically a "which ammo is best" kind of thing.

Chuck Taylor writes:

" Though constanly desparged by less knowledgable shooters, standard 230 grain FMJ hardball should not be overlooked as a general purpose choice. Since it's not a high performance load per se, it doesn't exhibit much muzzle flash or muzzle blast. "

" The claim that it's over-penetrative nearly always comes from the assumption that since its military coumterpart, the 9mm, is in fact very over-penetrative with FMJ bullets, it must be, too. In fact nothing could be farther from the truth. With its nominal velocity of 800 feet per second +/-, 230 grain ball expends nearly all of its energy in the target and if it exits at all, is normally pretty much spent."

He goes on to state that in five instances he has used .45 ACP hardball to stop a threat, with a 100% success rate. And that this 100% success rate was possible because he did do his part (refering to shot placement).

" Claims to the contrary are pure poppycock, nothing more, nothing less. Like the claim that it must be over-penetrative because other FMJ pistol ammo is, the notion that .45 ACP 230 grain ball isn't a good manstopper is also based upon an assumption derived from the 9mm, which is a notoriously poor manstopper with FMJ bullets."

With all that said, you can only believe half (at most!) of what you read. My normal carry is either a S&W 908 9mm with +P Gold Dots or a S&W 642 with Winchester SJHP's or Remingtom SWCHP's. I have carried a 9mm FMJ in the past, and if I carry 9x18 Makarov I'll only carry FMJ.

What says the forum on the issue of using .45 ACP ball for protection of home or family? Or am I yet another individual who has been persuaded that I must carry this super-duper double-expanding high-velocity manstopping hollowpoint bullet, which by the way will suck your pocket dry while running a few hundred rounds of it through your carry piece to ensure reliability.

This is not a caliber war, I do not wish to carry 9mm FMJ. But someday I WILL purchase a 1911 for carry, and I'd like some opinions.

JLaw.

I know, I know........................

[HighVelocity]

Ok, while I do not claim to have knowledge that Chuck lacks, my bull meter definitely saw some movement just now.
A 45acp 230gr FMJ will zip right through a 150lb deer LENGTHWISE. I know this because I fired that bullet. From chest to tail a deer sure looks a lot thicker than a man.
I also know that a 230gr fmj will penetrate multiple layers of glass and drywall, an 8ft long rack of clothes and a 2" thick oak waterbed frame.
I will not be convinced that the 230gr fmj is better than a jhp for soft targets, no matter what Chuck writes.

[Lonegun1894]

While overseas, I saw the damage a round does to a human body. These rounds included FMJ and HPs (dont ask, cause i didnt either) in 9mm and .45, along with various other calibers. Both the 9 and the .45 will go through a human chest, and usually keep on going, and that includes when they hit the spine and take some of that with them along for the ride. Having said that, i have carried FMJ .45s and will continue to feel safe while using them. I'd rather have some HPs too, as i like to alternate the two in my magazines, but wont feel undergunned with just .45 FMJ either. But i would seriously recommend being very careful of what is behind the threat, as you will probably hit it too, so it takes more careful use to be safe than a HP does. Now 9mm FMJ, i wont depend on for anything other than paper and tin cans unless it's the only thing i can possibly get a hold of. But have carried one stuffed with nothing but FMJs exactly because of the penetration potential that 9mm offers--vehicle defense, to penetrate vehicle doors and body panels. But that was in a military setting, and not civilian.

[MoJo]

Look at Marshall and Sanow's figures on one shot stops - - - nearly all major caliber FMJ including the 230 gr .45 ACP score around 60-65%. Almost any hollowpoint in a major caliber comes in at 80%+. For what it is worth I'll stay with Hydrashock, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, etal. If I only had hardball I wouldn't feel like I was unarmed just underarmed.

[JLaw]

I also know that a 230gr fmj will penetrate multiple layers of glass and drywall, an 8ft long rack of clothes and a 2" thick oak waterbed frame.
.

OH NO!!!

Sounds like there's a story behind that?!?

JLaw

[flintknapper]

Hardball is more apt to over penetrate than most H.P.'s

It has less chance of expending all of its energy...and less chance of creating the largest wound channel. It doesn't make sense to handicap yourself by using anything but the best expanding ammo.

Yes, I know there are situations where hardball would outperform hollow point ammo. But, day in and day out....I'll put my trust in: The grace of God, accurate shot placement, and expanding ammo.

Just my .02 on it.

[Lonegun1894]

Flint,
I know you're right about HPs being much better suited to defense purposes. I am slowly getting back to that, but got used to having to be able to punch through various things that HPs are handicapped by, where FMJ keeps on going and gets to your target. Not as much application now that i'm out, but still a hard habit to break.

[HighVelocity]

I also know that a 230gr fmj will penetrate multiple layers of glass and drywall, an 8ft long rack of clothes and a 2" thick oak waterbed frame.
.

OH NO!!!

Sounds like there's a story behind that?!?

JLaw

Yep. a very long time ago but I remember it like yesterday. nobody got hurt thank God. Look for the post your ND stories thread.

[KinnyLee]

I also know that a 230gr fmj will penetrate multiple layers of glass and drywall, an 8ft long rack of clothes and a 2" thick oak waterbed frame.
.

OH NO!!!

Sounds like there's a story behind that?!?

JLaw

Yep. a very long time ago but I remember it like yesterday. nobody got hurt thank God. Look for the post your ND stories thread.

At least no one got hurt.

[flintknapper]

Flint,
I know you're right about HPs being much better suited to defense purposes. I am slowly getting back to that, but got used to having to be able to punch through various things that HPs are handicapped by, where FMJ keeps on going and gets to your target. Not as much application now that i'm out, but still a hard habit to break.

No argument, that in a military setting (and some civilian), that hardball might be the best choice. Along those same lines, I use 230 gr. Corbon's in the winter months (to address heavy clothing) and then switch to 165's in the spring and summer months.

If I knew I was going to have to shoot through windshields, car doors or other objects to hit my target, then you better believe I'd want hardball.

I would never feel under gunned with hardball, it has a proven track record. I just don't think its the "best" thing for my application (most of the time).

I do know one thing: "I don't want to be hit by either of them".

[Lonegun1894]

Flint,
I almost hate to say this, but in the winter, especially when we get cold enough weather to make people bundle up, i often change my BUG from a snubby .357 to a .45 Colt Vaquero with heavy handloads topped with a 300gr Hornady XTP HP or a 300gr hardcast flat-nose. Both penetrate very well, and cover the need for a little extra punch. Only had to use this load once, and hopefully never again. It was the only handgun i had on me at the time, and it was an attempted carjacking. The BG got away, but i know he didnt enjoy the experience.

[Paladin]

.45 ACP hardball is a servicable cartridge. It has a proven track record of effectiveness.

If it's all you've got or all that will run reliably in your gun then use it.

That said there is better ammo out there. I carry 230gr. Winchester Ranger. If you do a search on this website you can find ammolab recommendations for various calibers.

[ShootingStar]

HighVelocity,

Thanks for sharing that little tidbit about the deer. Since it's flesh and blood, that's very valueable when estimating the danger of over penetration.

Paladin,
I consider the Winchester Ranger to be the best kept secret in the CHL community. When I bought my wife a 9mm, I stumbled on the Ranger ammo by accident when a vendor had it for $14/box of 50. Since then I have seen it selling for $20/box of 50 which is still a bargan when you consider all the other brands sell for $12 - $15 for a box of 20. Great ammo.

Everyone else, I think the article is stating that the FMJ is a good "General Purpose" ammo. Not that it equals the stopping power of HP. If I'm going some place where I think I need a little more penetration, like a park where there are alligators, I'll load up with .45 FMJs. The hyde on them critters is purty tough....

[JLaw]

Is Winchester Ranger an LEO only load, or can civilians purchase that line of ammunition?

JLaw

[flintknapper]

[quote="Lonegun1894"]Flint,
, i often change my BUG from a snubby .357 to a .45 Colt Vaquero with heavy handloads topped with a 300gr Hornady XTP HP or a 300gr hardcast flat-nose. quote]



I have suggested this very round (45 long colt) to several people that were interested in a snubby .357 (instead of it.)

Taurus makes a Model "450" with a 2" barrel in 45 long colt (not ACP). It is a "compact frame pistol" that comes in stainless steel (two models) and even one in titanium. They have ported barrels, are DA/SA, have fixed sights, round butts, rubber grips, and are not at all uncomfortable to shoot.

If someone really wants stopping power in a small package...then take the time to look at one of these. They are well made revolvers IMO and are 5 shot (same as many other compact snubbies).

I keep a Ruger SP-101 in .357 mag. around the house for Mrs Flintknapper... because its very controllable (with .38 specials) for her to practice with. But, a Taurus in .45 long colt is definitely going to be added to my collection. After having shot one that a friend of mine owns, I was left quite impressed.