Pocket Carry, 4 Rules, Bullet Expansion, Blood

[ELB]

Just got back from a medical run as a VFD first responder. Some notes:

1. Always carry your Kahr P-40 -- or any other pistol -- in a pocket holster. It will help with numbers 2 and 3 below.

2. Keep your finger off the trigger when you are pocketing your pistol. Keep everything else off of the trigger when pocketing the pistol. See number 1.

3. When pocketing the pistol, make sure you have it pointing parallel to your thigh, not pointing at it, not even slightly. More generally, don't point your pistol at anything you really don't want to put a hole in. Also, see number 1.

4. .40 Gold Dot expands perfectly when passing completely through approximately 12 inches of flesh without contacting bone.

5. Getting shot can be painful. You don't necessarily bleed externally alot, but the swelling can be quite impressive. And painful.

End of lesson.

[justintime]

OUCH

[Skiprr]

Isn't Plaxico Burris offering a new training video as a public service?

[G.C.Montgomery]

Just got back from a medical run as a VFD first responder. Some notes:

1. Always carry your Kahr P-40 -- or any other pistol -- in a pocket holster. It will help with numbers 2 and 3 below.

2. Keep your finger off the trigger when you are pocketing your pistol. Keep everything else off of the trigger when pocketing the pistol. See number 1.

3. When pocketing the pistol, make sure you have it pointing parallel to your thigh, not pointing at it, not even slightly. More generally, don't point your pistol at anything you really don't want to put a hole in. Also, see number 1.

4. .40 Gold Dot expands perfectly when passing completely through approximately 12 inches of flesh without contacting bone.

5. Getting shot can be painful. You don't necessarily bleed externally alot, but the swelling can be quite impressive. And painful.

End of lesson.

Not pointing fingers because I'm assuming you witnessed rather than experienced these lessons, right? We must learn from other people's mistakes...We surely will not live long enough to make them all ourselves!

[G.C.Montgomery]

Its content violates forum rules due to languageso I can't post a link. But, might I suggest looking up the "Plaxico Burress On Gun Safety" video that has been uploaded to YouTube?

[The Annoyed Man]

Its content violates forum rules due to languageso I can't post a link. But, might I suggest looking up the "Plaxico Burress On Gun Safety" video that has been uploaded to YouTube?

Now that there is funny, I don't who y'are!

[flintknapper]

Just got back from a medical run as a VFD first responder. Some notes:

1. Always carry your Kahr P-40 -- or any other pistol -- in a pocket holster. It will help with numbers 2 and 3 below.

2. Keep your finger off the trigger when you are pocketing your pistol. Keep everything else off of the trigger when pocketing the pistol. See number 1.

3. When pocketing the pistol, make sure you have it pointing parallel to your thigh, not pointing at it, not even slightly. More generally, don't point your pistol at anything you really don't want to put a hole in. Also, see number 1.

4. .40 Gold Dot expands perfectly when passing completely through approximately 12 inches of flesh without contacting bone.

5. Getting shot can be painful. You don't necessarily bleed externally alot, but the swelling can be quite impressive. And painful.

End of lesson.

Pretty much proves the point I've tried to make here several times before:
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 13&t=21415" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My argument is not generally "well received", but the truth nonetheless. It is well to follow as many of the four golden rules as you can, but the most important is: KEEP YOUR FINGER (and everything else) OFF THE TRIGGER.

A careful (and honest) evaluation of your mode of carry will reveal that most people "cover" themselves (or someone else) while carrying concealed. The only reason this is not better understood/demonstrated is because MOST people keep their finger off the trigger. Simple!

[ELB]

Not pointing fingers because I'm assuming you witnessed rather than experienced these lessons, right? We must learn from other people's mistakes...We surely will not live long enough to make them all ourselves!

Yes I was only a post-event witness and first-aider...


In reference to other comments == the four Golden Rules of firearms are overlapping -- you can often get away with violating one of them, and be protected by the others. Start stacking 'violations' on top of each other, you get problems.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Pretty much proves the point I've tried to make here several times before:
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 13&t=21415" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My argument is not generally "well received", but the truth nonetheless. It is well to follow as many of the four golden rules as you can, but the most important is: KEEP YOUR FINGER (and everything else) OFF THE TRIGGER.

A careful (and honest) evaluation of your mode of carry will reveal that most people "cover" themselves (or someone else) while carrying concealed. The only reason this is not better understood/demonstrated is because MOST people keep their finger off the trigger. Simple!

Generally, you are correct...We almost all end up covering ourselves on the draw and as we reholster. Every system has it's issues but I find most shoulder rigs slow, cumbersome and rude. Yeah, I said rude!

Here's the deal...I generally don't care anymore if someone shoots themselves. It's unfortunate but, experience is a great teacher. She's usually slow and the lessons are almost always painful but, she's VERY thorough. As it happens, most shoulder rigs actually manage NOT to point the muzzle at the guy carrying the gun. And if all I had to worry about was a guy giving himself an instant mastectomy with a shoulder rig, I probably wouldn't care. However, more than once, some poor sap like me has glanced down at someone armpit's only to see a muzzle staring him in the face! That is RUDE!

Yes, I realize that so long as his boogerhook ain't (or shouldn't be) on the bang switch all will be fine unless there's something wrong with the gun. Oh...But what if there is something wrong with that gun? Well, if it was IWB/OWB, the guy might poke a whole in his hind quarter or a foot but, I'm willing to accept the risk of someone shooting themselves.What is a concern is having a gun needlessly sweeping everyone even if no one has their finger on the trigger. Let me put it another way...Are you willing to let me point my muzzle at your forehead while my finger resting well outside the trigger bow and high on the slide? I'm certainly not willing to let you do it to me.

OK...I'm done being silly. I've got to head over to Top Gun, we're supposed to be doing carbines tonight.

Later

[flintknapper]

Not pointing fingers because I'm assuming you witnessed rather than experienced these lessons, right? We must learn from other people's mistakes...We surely will not live long enough to make them all ourselves!

Yes I was only a post-event witness and first-aider...


In reference to other comments == the four Golden Rules of firearms are overlapping -- you can often get away with violating one of them, and be protected by the others. Start stacking 'violations' on top of each other, you get problems.

Certainly…the four golden rules are there to provide redundancies. What worries me though is: If a person cannot consistently perform the easiest (and perhaps most important) of the four, why should I have any confidence…that same person will do any of the others?

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[flintknapper]

G.C.Montgomery wrote:

Generally, you are correct..
We almost all end up covering ourselves on the draw and as we reholster.

There is no “generally correct” about it. I have issued the challenge here before…and precious few ever came back holding the position that they did NOT cover themselves or someone else when carrying (or would if they drew their weapon).

Every system has it's issues but I find most shoulder rigs slow, cumbersome and rude. Yeah, I said rude!

Others find shoulder rigs “just the ticket”, so your personal condemnation rings a bit hollow. Concerning rude, there is no need to repeat yourself…I understood your meaning the first time. We will address the “rude” part in a moment though.

As it happens, most shoulder rigs actually manage NOT to point the muzzle at the guy carrying the gun.

This is true. It is equally true that a weapon “properly” drawn from a horizontal shoulder rig does NOT cover the person drawing it or anyone else unless there happens to be someone directly under you in a very narrow 45 deg. arc by your weak side.

And if all I had to worry about was a guy giving himself an instant mastectomy with a shoulder rig, I probably wouldn't care.

See response above.

However, more than once, some poor sap like me has glanced down at someone armpit's only to see a muzzle staring him in the face! That is RUDE!

I will have to assume in your line of work…you come in contact with a fair number of folks who carry in shoulder rigs and are unjacketed (not concealed). If this is in connection with some line of LEO…then you have a “bone to pick” with administration, because apparently, they consider it to be safe and NOT “rude”. Same thing for the military. If it’s “good” for them…why not citizens? How do we reconcile this?

While we are making such fuss about seeing a “muzzle” (irrespective of the readily dischargeable state of the weapon), lets consider the hundreds of times a day LEO point loaded weapons (in hand/readily dischargeable) at people. Is this “rude”?

Yes, I realize that so long as his boogerhook ain't (or shouldn't be) on the bang switch all will be fine unless there's something wrong with the gun. Oh...But what if there is something wrong with that gun?

If there is something wrong with the weapon then we have a separate issue don’t we. An unsafe weapon is an unsafe weapon regardless of mode of carry. Do you know of a single incident involving a shoulder holster and an improperly functioning weapon resulting in a discharge? Or are we just “if-ing” here to try to make point?

Let me adopt your strategy for just a moment though…and see IF you have the same problem with other modes of carry as you do with S/C. A great many ladies carry a pistol in a purse, often during the day…the muzzle is in a horizontal position or pointing down at a slight angle. Yes, you don’t SEE it…and get a case of the willy’s, but it’s there. Problem?

How about Joe Citizen with his pistol resting on his bedside table in the apartment next door (muzzle pointing somewhere other than him). Same orientation as the guy with a shoulder rig, right? Problem with that? Rude?

You may have friends who wear a BUG in an ankle holster (or know someone who does). Lets say this person crosses his leg (like men do) while sitting in a chair on a couch. Where is that muzzle…again? Rude…I tell ya.

It goes on and on: Pistol on car seat or glove compartment, pistol in briefcase, pistol in trunk of car, pistol in luggage, pistol on hip of a person above another, pistol on hip and wearer bends over. Rude…..or reality!

I'm willing to accept the risk of someone shooting themselves.

Really, I thought this discussion was for the sake of safety. I extend that concern to everyone.

What is a concern is having a gun needlessly sweeping everyone even if no one has their finger on the trigger.

Then I suggest you immediately enact a bill to repeal concealed carry, because its happening all around you everyday. You just refuse to accept that there are times when weapons are actually safe (I.E. properly functioning, holstered/secured, not being handled).

Let me put it another way...Are you willing to let me point my muzzle at your forehead while my finger resting well outside the trigger bow and high on the slide?

Certainly not, nor does this in anyway compare to a holstered weapon. No where have I suggested that a readily dischargeable weapon (in hand) is something to be taken lightly or to point at someone unless absolutely necessary.

Conversely, I do not get overly concerned about the loaded state of a weapon (or anyone’s method of carry) provided the weapon works properly and is not being handled. More importantly….the last thing on my mind is the idea that it is “rude” to employ a manner of carry different than yours.

I'm certainly not willing to let you do it to me.

I would never dream of such a thing, so it will never be an issue.

OK...I'm done being silly. I've got to head over to Top Gun, we're supposed to be doing carbines tonight.

Have fun, be careful.


Just my .02 on it (with a nickel rebate).