"Cop killer" bullets, body armor, myths vs. truths.

[bdickens]

The Holy Grail for a firearms of ammunition manufacturer is a big military of law enforcement contract. Why in the world would one of them design somethig for the express purpose of killing off their potential customers? It defies logic.

Remember the "back masking" controversy in the 1980's? That came to a head with the infamous Vance v. Judas Priest lawsuit against British Heavy Metal band Judas Preist where it was alleged that subliminal messages in their music caused Raymond Belknap (18) and James Vance (20) to enter a suicide pact and kill themselves. Singer Rob Halford commented that if they wanted to insert subliminal commands in their music, messages leading to the deaths of their fans would be counterproductive, and they would prefer to insert the command "Buy more of our records."

Same with the ammo makers.

[HankB]

"Cop-killer bullet" is a term coined, IIRC, by NBC news in their campaign to educate criminals about a) the prevalence of soft body armor among police; and 2) the type of ammunition required to penetrate this soft body armor.

In the '70s a company called KTW introduced a tungsten alloy bullet which was quite hard, and designed to penetrate metal. Marketed ONLY to police, the bullets had a Teflon coating to engage the rifling - the tungsten alloy was too hard to be engraved by the rifling, hence the teflon "jacket."

Tungsten got too expensive, so I believe the company modified the bullets to a bronze alloy.

The media found that these bullets would penetrate Kevlar vests, and so called them "Cop Killers." Of course, their hysterical reporting served only to bring them to the attention of bad guys . . . and anecdotal reports had bad guys trying to shoot cops in the head, which wasn't protected by body armor. (Thanks, NBC! )

Of course, "metal penetrating" handgun bullets are nothing new - they've been around longer than I have. In fact, my 1947 "Western Ammuntion Handbook" devotes a couple of pages to their metal penetrating loads, meant for use by police when shooting at bad guys in getaway cars. I suspect at least the .357 loads would penetrate some Kevlar vests. (I'd guess the .30 Mauser round, dating to the late 1800's, probably would, too . . . and that wasn't specifically designed as metal piercing.)

[chabouk]

In the '70s a company called KTW introduced a tungsten alloy bullet which was quite hard, and designed to penetrate metal. Marketed ONLY to police, the bullets had a Teflon coating to engage the rifling - the tungsten alloy was too hard to be engraved by the rifling, hence the teflon "jacket."

Tungsten got too expensive, so I believe the company modified the bullets to a bronze alloy.

The media found that these bullets would penetrate Kevlar vests, and so called them "Cop Killers."

In all the hysteria, they propogated the idea that the Teflon was the problem, not the hardened alloy. That's why some states outlaw Teflon coating, when it had nothing at all to do with penetrating body armor.

[LongHairedRedneck]

Even the measly .22lr can be a"cop killer" if placed in the proper place. Another phrase made up by the antis.

[srothstein]

When properly wearing the appropriate body armor, not one law enforcement officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their vest.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just so you all have accurate information, the above statement is not true and has not been true for about 6 years. While not publicized very well outside of law enforcement, there was an officer killed while wearing his vest. A second officer suffered serious injuries the same way. Both officers had bullets penetrate their vest. Both vests were in warranty and rated to stop the ammunition the officers were shot with.

Both officers were wearing vests made with Zylon, a relatively new material that was thought to be superior to kevlar (less weight and more flexible for the same resistance). The problem was the material deteriorated with use much quicker than kevlar and this was the way the problem was discovered. Zylon was then disqualified by the NIJ for ballistic vest use. The resulting lawsuits put Second Chance Armor (the company that started it all and the largest in the business at the time) out of business. Several other companies were nearly shut down also and only mergers or takeovers saved them.

And the new standard for body armor was developed and released recently to prevent this from happening again. Click here to read the latest standard for vests. The report is dated Jul 08, but it is just making the rounds of the law enforcement community. There is some question if it is an improvement because the vests are better, but heavier and stiffer, making them less likely to be worn.

[MoJo]

Gentlemen, do you really think a discussion of ammunition that may or may not defeat body armor is appropriate for a public forum? Moderators?

[seamusTX]

The information has been in the public domain for decades.

I think it's better to review the facts than let the antis have the last word.

- Jim

[Keith B]

The information has been in the public domain for decades.

I think it's better to review the facts than let the antis have the last word.

- Jim

This is nothing new that is not out there already. The media and anti's want to sensationalize everything if it sounds bad. Just like the box of Black Talon .357's I still have. These were deemed 'cop killers' back in the early 90's; nothing but a bunch of hyped up publicity about nothing special because of evil black coating that had mystical powers. In reality, the black coating was Lubalox and was to protect the barrel rifling, and did not give the bullet armor-piercing capabilities like the anti's tried to make out it did. The publicity in the media caused Olin (Winchester) to pull them from production. They still manufacture the exact same bullet in the SXT (some say it means 'Same 'Xact Thing) line today, just without the black Lubalox.

[hk boy]

in the fort hood massacre, the BG had a pistol with a caliber that is made to penetrate body armor
can't remember caliber or the level of armor it can penetrate.
but I believe ammo is only avaliable to police and military

[surprise_i'm_armed]

hkboy:

The Fort Hood killer was using an FN Five Seven handgun (or 5-7),
IIRC this is a 20+ 1 capacity pistol.

The ammo's size is 5.7 x 28mm.

There are different levels of ammo which this gun will shoot.

Some is available to civilians, while the hotter loads are restricted to LEO/Military.

By the way, the killer purchased his gun at Guns Galore in Killeen, Texas.

SIA

[CDH]

First you have to quantify what level of armor...and with or without plate inserts...

They you can start evaluating what ammo will pierce that armor. It's a pretty well developed science by now. The science of armor vs. penetrator has been going on since probably shortly after firearms were invented.

[seamusTX]

The science of armor vs. penetrator has been going on since probably shortly after firearms were invented.

More likely since the Bronze Age.

I don't know of any evidence of body armor before then, but what there was might have been made of leather and decayed long ago.

- Jim

[rm9792]

Gentlemen, do you really think a discussion of ammunition that may or may not defeat body armor is appropriate for a public forum? Moderators?

I seriously doubt a single criminal is reading this site. The whole sideways gangsta glock hold is proof they read very little, even to advance their own profession. The serious baddies already know this stuff.