Utah CHL

[mwadibe]

anyone used or heard of family gun fun. they teach you under the Utah non-resident Chl and that will be the CHL you get issued it is cheaper and you only have to go to the class no range time does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this

[Skydivesnake]

...my opinion is that you should add your weight to the voice of the existing Texas CHL community and get a Texas CHL. If you are worried about the range test, go and get some practice until you're not (it's not difficult).

I can see the value of a Utah and/or Florida non-res if that gives you additional states that are not covered by your Texas CHL. But please do get that one.

[mwadibe]

im not worried about the range test. i just like the fact that its cheaper and also the place is next door to me. also i think the wait would be less as well.

[Crossfire]

Texas and Utah are both processing applications in about the same time frame right now, so the wait is no longer an issue.

If the cost is a concern, then look at the facts. This guy charges $100 for the 4 hour class. You have to download the application and your own course material, print it, and bring it to the class. You also have to go somewhere else to get your own photo made and have your form notarized. Doesn't sound like that big a savings to me when you can get an all-inclusive Texas class just about anywhere in the metroplex for the same money.

IMO, you would be better off spending just a few more bucks to get the Texas license. No hassle with federal gun free school zone laws, no worries about trying to educate an officer on reciprocity laws when you get stopped for a traffic violation, you get to bypass the NICS check when you purchase a firearm, and you are supporting the Texas CHL community.

Having said that, we still teach BOTH classes. But we make sure everyone knows what they have signed up for before they leave with ONLY a Utah application. Your choice.

[Backslider]

The most recent KR Training Newsletter had what I believe to be a well-reasoned evaluation of the value of getting a Texas CHL over Utah. #3 is the point that resonated most with me.

UTAH PERMITS FOR TEXAS CARRY?

I've had several conversations this month with students that were considering, or have gotten, Utah carry permits as a way to carry in Texas without "going through the hassle" of getting a Texas permit. The Utah class is shorter in length and the fees are cheaper. Reasons getting a Utah permit is a bad idea:

1) You will be arrested by Texas cops and tried in Texas courts when you violate Texas gun laws. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Going to court is a far bigger "hassle" than sitting through a Texas CHL class.
2) The cop that pulls you over may not be familiar with the "loophole" in Texas law that allows residents to carry on non-resident licenses...so you may end up getting hassled on the side of the road.
3) Your money and your data go to another state. If everyone in Texas got Utah permits, it would appear that no one in Texas carries. That would significantly weaken the power of our lobby with the Legislature. Sending your CHL money to Utah helps Utah, not Texas.

I have a fundamental problem with people that think that training to be well prepared for a life-or-death situation, including learning the details of relevant state laws, is "a waste of time".

I've also been told by some potential students that they want a Utah permit so that they "won't have to tell cops I'm carrying when I'm pulled over". This requirement was removed from Texas law during the last legislative session, and even when it was required, it was not a significant problem for permit holders. The success of the Texas CHL program is due, in part, to the support Texas CHL holders have received from law enforcement agencies in Texas, and DPS specifically. Our Texas CHL system works, and we have been able to adjust it to make it better for permit holders since its inception. "Cheating the system" by opting for a Utah permit is the wrong thing to do, and I encourage those that have Utah permits (and not Texas permits) or those considering this option to do the right thing for your own education and for gun rights in Texas by getting the Texas CHL.

[Keith B]

The most recent KR Training Newsletter had what I believe to be a well-reasoned evaluation of the value of getting a Texas CHL over Utah. #3 is the point that resonated most with me.

UTAH PERMITS FOR TEXAS CARRY?

I've had several conversations this month with students that were considering, or have gotten, Utah carry permits as a way to carry in Texas without "going through the hassle" of getting a Texas permit. The Utah class is shorter in length and the fees are cheaper. Reasons getting a Utah permit is a bad idea:

1) You will be arrested by Texas cops and tried in Texas courts when you violate Texas gun laws. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Going to court is a far bigger "hassle" than sitting through a Texas CHL class.
2) The cop that pulls you over may not be familiar with the "loophole" in Texas law that allows residents to carry on non-resident licenses...so you may end up getting hassled on the side of the road.
3) Your money and your data go to another state. If everyone in Texas got Utah permits, it would appear that no one in Texas carries. That would significantly weaken the power of our lobby with the Legislature. Sending your CHL money to Utah helps Utah, not Texas.

I have a fundamental problem with people that think that training to be well prepared for a life-or-death situation, including learning the details of relevant state laws, is "a waste of time".

I've also been told by some potential students that they want a Utah permit so that they "won't have to tell cops I'm carrying when I'm pulled over". This requirement was removed from Texas law during the last legislative session, and even when it was required, it was not a significant problem for permit holders. The success of the Texas CHL program is due, in part, to the support Texas CHL holders have received from law enforcement agencies in Texas, and DPS specifically. Our Texas CHL system works, and we have been able to adjust it to make it better for permit holders since its inception. "Cheating the system" by opting for a Utah permit is the wrong thing to do, and I encourage those that have Utah permits (and not Texas permits) or those considering this option to do the right thing for your own education and for gun rights in Texas by getting the Texas CHL.

The problem is, this instructor is also giving wrong information. The requirement to provide your CHL still exists, but there is no penalty if you fail to do so.

[Backslider]

Yeah, I had the same reaction. Thanks for calling that out. Definitely an important nuance to be aware of.

[cougartex]

If you have a Texas CHL, why would you want a CHL from another state?
Can you carry in more states with a Utah or Florida CHL than Texas CHL?
Please explain......

[Hoosier Daddy]

1) You will be arrested by Texas cops and tried in Texas courts when you violate Texas gun laws. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Going to court is a far bigger "hassle" than sitting through a Texas CHL class.

Based on what I read on this board, there are a lot of instructors teaching wrong information. I'm sure there are good and bad like any profession, but what are they doing to revoke certification for the bad apples?

Meanwhile, with instructors out there teaching bad information, a potential student might be better off reading the LS-16 document instead of paying extra to be force fed misinformation.

2) The cop that pulls you over may not be familiar with the "loophole" in Texas law that allows residents to carry on non-resident licenses...so you may end up getting hassled on the side of the road.

If a cop pulls me over, I'm covered by the Motorist Protection Act and don't need a non-resident concealed license.

Sending your CHL money to Utah helps Utah, not Texas.

I'm a capitalist and I believe in competition. Why can't Texas offer a license at a similar price to Utah? Renewals too. Or at the worst make a CHL renewal cost the same as a DL renewal.

When banks compete, you win. The same idea applies here.

Disclaimer: I recently moved here for work and I'm still carrying on my "home" license. My DL and tags are also from there. I won't be changing any of those until we buy a house.

[KC5AV]

If you have a Texas CHL, why would you want a CHL from another state?
Can you carry in more states with a Utah or Florida CHL than Texas CHL?
Please explain......

I forget which states, but there are a few that recognize Utah (and probably Florida) that don't recognize Texas.

[Keith B]

If you have a Texas CHL, why would you want a CHL from another state?
Can you carry in more states with a Utah or Florida CHL than Texas CHL?
Please explain......

Utah gives you a few more states that Texas doesn't (check http://www.handgunlaw.us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the states), BUT there are a quite a few states that either don't honor or are starting to not honor non-resident CHL's, so those states may go away in the future.

[joe817]

I throw out a question for the group:

Politics working, is many times a give and take relationship. That is to say, if one legislator wants a bill passed, but in order to get that particular piece of legislation passed, another piece of legislation will have to be eliminated. For what ever the reason...budget trade off, etc.

IF Texas were to pass legislation for eliminating non-resident CHL's, would Texas CHL holders gain something in return? Such as campus carry or employer parking bills passed?

OR....is this something that Joe should just shut up about?

[OldSchool]

I throw out a question for the group:

Politics working, is many times a give and take relationship. That is to say, if one legislator wants a bill passed, but in order to get that particular piece of legislation passed, another piece of legislation will have to be eliminated. For what ever the reason...budget trade off, etc.

IF Texas were to pass legislation for eliminating non-resident CHL's, would Texas CHL holders gain something in return? Such as campus carry or employer parking bills passed?

OR....is this something that Joe should just shut up about?

Heh, you've described IMHO the ideal purpose for a real political system (as opposed to a bully, or snatch-and-grab political system...).

I was going to say something glorious here about incrementally improving the laws through mutual respect and give-and-take, but it seemed corny for this day-and-age (and I am Old School), so I gave up....

[joe817]

Heh, you've described IMHO the ideal purpose for a real political system (as opposed to a bully, or snatch-and-grab political system...). I was going to say something glorious here about incrementally improving the laws through mutual respect and give-and-take, but it seemed corny for this day-and-age (and I am Old School), so I gave up....

OldSchool, that went out of vogue when we were in high school. My how times have changed.

[OldSchool]

I'm a capitalist and I believe in competition. Why can't Texas offer a license at a similar price to Utah? Renewals too. Or at the worst make a CHL renewal cost the same as a DL renewal.

When banks compete, you win. The same idea applies here.

A good thought, in general. However, governments inherently don't like competition, and only have to put up with it when politically necessary. When legislators believe that a government-provided "privilege" (such as "special" licensing -- let's ignore the 2A aspect of this for this argument) "is more expensive than it's worth" (i.e., either it doesn't bring in enough money or the money can be used "better" elsewhere), then that privilege simply goes away. In fact, this just happened (again) with the firm for whom I work.

So, IMHO, it is to the political advantage of the TX CHL community to maintain reasonably affordable CHL fees, if uncompetitive, to make the program interesting for the legislature (especially if the fees help the DPS budget?). The legislators can, of course, simply shut out the "competition" entirely. They can also simply, if the CHL program is too much trouble, .... (I can't say it.)

FWIW. that's what I think, when we discuss "supporting the program."