Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#106

Post by The Annoyed Man »

gwashorn wrote:TAM, that was great. Much appreciated in your building the logic and demeanor. May I pass this to some friends to read? I find your approach to provide insight very compelling. Thanks for a great write up.

Gary
Thank you, and feel free to use it. All I did was give articulation to some common sense ideas which are shared by a huge majority of Americans.

I remember talking to a co-worker who is a middle-aged black woman living in a pretty run-down area of Dallas, populated primarily by blacks. We got to talking about illegal immigration one day, and she was pretty angry about it. And according to her, what she felt was not at all uncommon in black communities, particularly those at the lower economic margins. Now, there are plenty of other social pressures affecting the quality of life in black ghettos, but one of them is undeniably chronic unemployment — which is also the root cause of some of those other pressures. And for better or for worse, those "jobs that Americans don't want to take" used to be filled primarily by black Americans who otherwise lacked the skills to raise themselves up financially. They weren't getting rich, and many were not even getting to the middle classes, but at least they had jobs, and they could count on a small modicum of financial stability.

When illegals really arrived in large numbers, they became available in large numbers, and at very low wages, to the labor pool — wages lower than even the pretty low wages being paid to black Americans who lived near or at the poverty level. The natural consequence of this is that lots of employers were willing to look the other way to hire illegals at lower wages than what they had been paying to black American citizens. Unemployment in black neighborhoods, which had always been higher to varying degrees than in their white counterparts, began to skyrocket. With vastly increased unemployment came an increase in other baggage. So that is at least one group of American citizens who have been measurably and negatively impacted by the influx of people who broke our laws to get here.

I have to ask.... As an American citizen, to whom do I owe more loyalty: my fellow citizens of color who have been hurt by illegal immigration, or the illegal immigrants who took their jobs? The answer is a no-brainer. The solution is to enforce penalties against knowingly hiring illegal aliens, and to require employers to verify a prospective employee's residency status.

I am a self-employed businessman, and I am generally against imposing additional burdens on capitalists. But it just isn't that hard to confirm whether or not a job applicant is a legal resident. You have the job opening. The applicant wants the job. Make them prove by verifiable means that they are eligible for the job. If they cannot do so, then hire the one who can. End of story. If enough jobs get filled by those who can prove their eligibility, then those that cannot prove it will go back to where they came from. If enough jobs go unfilled because not enough job applicants can prove their eligibility, then employers have to raise wages enough to attract those applicants who can prove it.

That is capitalism at its finest. But introducing illegal workers into the system to compete unfairly against those who have a right to be here pollutes that system and bogs it down. THAT is the one of the best answers one can give to the paltry argument that illegals are "merely" economic immigrants and that we should ignore our laws out of some kind of misguided sense of pity.
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duns
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#107

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The Annoyed Man wrote:The solution is to enforce penalties against knowingly hiring illegal aliens, and to require employers to verify a prospective employee's residency status.
Already the case. Employers must complete Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification. https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/[abbreviated profanity deleted] ... ility.html
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#108

Post by The Annoyed Man »

duns wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:The solution is to enforce penalties against knowingly hiring illegal aliens, and to require employers to verify a prospective employee's residency status.
Already the case. Employers must complete Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification. https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/[abbreviated profanity deleted] ... ility.html
Again, you quote out of context. This is what I said:
I have to ask.... As an American citizen, to whom do I owe more loyalty: my fellow citizens of color who have been hurt by illegal immigration, or the illegal immigrants who took their jobs? The answer is a no-brainer. The solution is to enforce penalties against knowingly hiring illegal aliens, and to require employers to verify a prospective employee's residency status.

I am a self-employed businessman, and I am generally against imposing additional burdens on capitalists. But it just isn't that hard to confirm whether or not a job applicant is a legal resident. You have the job opening. The applicant wants the job. Make them prove by verifiable means that they are eligible for the job. If they cannot do so, then hire the one who can. End of story. If enough jobs get filled by those who can prove their eligibility, then those that cannot prove it will go back to where they came from. If enough jobs go unfilled because not enough job applicants can prove their eligibility, then employers have to raise wages enough to attract those applicants who can prove it.
You don't get to misquote me without getting called on it. If you allow employers to place the burden of proof on job applicants - where it belongs - same as if an applicant has to prove that they can pass a urine drug test, or posses a valid driver's license, etc., etc., then the problem goes away.
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#109

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duns wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:The solution is to enforce penalties against knowingly hiring illegal aliens, and to require employers to verify a prospective employee's residency status.
Already the case. Employers must complete Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification. https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/[abbreviated profanity deleted] ... ility.html
Sure it is. Just like it's already the case that we have laws that don't allow illegal immigration. Both work about the same. The government completely ignores the law so everybody else does as well.

Show my one high profile case in the past 50 years where an employer was fined or punished in any way for hiring illegal aliens. And before you get squirrelly on me, duns, note that I did say high profile - meaning a case that caught everyone's attention and altered behavior patterns.
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duns
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#110

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The Annoyed Man wrote:But it just isn't that hard to confirm whether or not a job applicant is a legal resident. You have the job opening. The applicant wants the job. Make them prove by verifiable means that they are eligible for the job.
I'm an employer and so familiar with the Form I-9 system. Every new employee (including US citizens) must fill out Part 1 of Form I-9 and present it to the employer with supporting documents that establish both identity and employment authorization. This form has to be presented no later than the start of the employment. The employer has three days to examine the documents unless the duration of the job is less than 3 days in which case he must examine them before work starts. The employer then fills out Part 2 of the Form where he lists the documents submitted and certifies that he has examined them and that they appear to be genuine. The employee and the employer must sign their respective parts of the form under penalty of perjury. Failing to follow the procedure or making false statements on the form makes both the employee and employer liable to fines and/or imprisonment. You stated that you wanted a system where employees "prove by verifiable means that they are eligible for the job". The Form I-9 system is just such a system.

Perhaps we could get back to the thread topic which was not illegal immigration per se but illegals crossing the border armed with weapons?

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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#111

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baldeagle wrote:Show my one high profile case in the past 50 years where an employer was fined or punished in any way for hiring illegal aliens. And before you get squirrelly on me, duns, note that I did say high profile - meaning a case that caught everyone's attention and altered behavior patterns.
What about that case where a firm building the California border fence used illegal labor to help build it - $5,000,000 in fines? Does that count as high profile? Not sure if the executives were jailed in the end or whether they did a plea bargain.
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#112

Post by The Annoyed Man »

duns wrote:Perhaps we could get back to the thread topic which was not illegal immigration per se but illegals crossing the border armed with weapons?
I would be happy to. I'm not the one who implied that we should overlook illegals who are economic immigrants. :mrgreen:
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#113

Post by duns »

The Annoyed Man wrote:
duns wrote:Perhaps we could get back to the thread topic which was not illegal immigration per se but illegals crossing the border armed with weapons?
I would be happy to. I'm not the one who implied that we should overlook illegals who are economic immigrants. :mrgreen:
I'm sorry if I implied that. It was not my intention to divert the thread to a discussion of immigration issues generally. What I thought I said was words to the effect that we could make more and easier pathways to legal immigration to take a lot of pressure off the Border Patrol so that they can focus to a greater extent on catching the armed drug runners that were shown on video as coming in brazenly across the border. I do not condone illegal immigration. Apologies if I wasn't clear.
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#114

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duns wrote:You stated that you wanted a system where employees "prove by verifiable means that they are eligible for the job". The Form I-9 system is just such a system.
It sounds like we need an instant check system for I-9 like for 4473. It should be easy for the government to verify, at the minimum, the name, age, and other information match the social security number.
duns wrote:Perhaps we could get back to the thread topic which was not illegal immigration per se but illegals crossing the border armed with weapons?
Shoot them. Leave the bodies as a warning for other criminals.
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#115

Post by duns »

SwimFan85 wrote:It sounds like we need an instant check system for I-9 like for 4473. It should be easy for the government to verify, at the minimum, the name, age, and other information match the social security number.
There actually is an instant check system called E-Verify http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/E4eng.pdf. However, use by employers is voluntary (unless the employer is a government body or has been ordered to use it due to previous immigration law violations). It could certainly be argued that use of this system should be compulsory.
SwimFan85 wrote:Shoot them. Leave the bodies as a warning for other criminals.
Hey, I don't agree but it has the merit of being a clear recommendation :clapping:
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#116

Post by suthdj »

SwimFan85 wrote:
duns wrote:You stated that you wanted a system where employees "prove by verifiable means that they are eligible for the job". The Form I-9 system is just such a system.
It sounds like we need an instant check system for I-9 like for 4473. It should be easy for the government to verify, at the minimum, the name, age, and other information match the social security number.
duns wrote:Perhaps we could get back to the thread topic which was not illegal immigration per se but illegals crossing the border armed with weapons?
Shoot them. Leave the bodies as a warning for other criminals.
:iagree:

If they are coming across with weapons it is now an armed invasion and we should have an armed response.
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

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Imagine the training opportunities for our military. Live ammo exercises. Predator surveillance. Sniper practice. Intelligence gathering. 24x7 armed watches. The list goes on and on. We could even get the brown water Navy involved on the Rio Grande.
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duns
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

#118

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baldeagle wrote:Imagine the training opportunities for our military. Live ammo exercises. Predator surveillance. Sniper practice. Intelligence gathering. 24x7 armed watches. The list goes on and on. We could even get the brown water Navy involved on the Rio Grande.
I tend to agree but are most of the resources currently tied up overseas? I don't know, just asking. As for the brown water navy, from what I saw of the Rio Grande it's mostly a trickle rather than a great river -- are there really patrol boats on it? Again don't know, just asking -- I had the impression one could walk across in many places and hardly get wet.
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Re: Armed illegals brazenly crossing the border

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duns wrote:
baldeagle wrote:Imagine the training opportunities for our military. Live ammo exercises. Predator surveillance. Sniper practice. Intelligence gathering. 24x7 armed watches. The list goes on and on. We could even get the brown water Navy involved on the Rio Grande.
I tend to agree but are most of the resources currently tied up overseas? I don't know, just asking. As for the brown water navy, from what I saw of the Rio Grande it's mostly a trickle rather than a great river -- are there really patrol boats on it? Again don't know, just asking -- I had the impression one could walk across in many places and hardly get wet.
At any given time, one third of the Army is fighting, one third is resting and re-equipping and one third is training (gross generalization). The one third that is training could do that training on the border and benefit from real life scenarios such as desert survival skills, taking, holding and guarding prisoners, etc., etc.

Yes, the Rio Grande is more like the Rio not-so-Grande these days. The brown water Navy comment was a bit of a joke from an old Navy guy.
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
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