Worn Leather Hoslter Causes "Accidental" Discharge

[Texas Dan Mosby]

I agree any handgun would be more dangerous in a screwed up holster like that but I can't see any way a 1911 would be as dangerous as a Glock in that holster.

And herein is yet another excellent example of the compromises one must be aware of, and accept, in order to make an informed decision regarding defensive firearms.

"Point and press" arms eliminate the conditioning / training required to deactivate manual safety features, which is good. However, they do not discriminate between who, or what, is doing the pressing, which, as in this example, can be bad.

Arms that have manual safety features that must be deactivated in order to fire are far less susceptible to being discharged as a result of contact with foreign objects, such as a holster. This is good. However, these arms also require training / conditioning to ensure that the user deactivates these safety features prior to attempting to fire under stress. That can be bad, as some folks just won't dedicate the time to properly condition themselves, and may forget about the safety when they need to fire the most.

Pick your poison.

One of the endearing qualities of my beloved 1911's are the manual safety features. The 1911 WILL punish you for being stupid, ignorant, or a noob.

Fail to disengage the thumb safety? NO SHOT FOR YOU!!!
Weak grip that fails to disengage the grip safety? NO SHOT FOR YOU!!!!
Put your thumbs under the THUMB (:)) safety and accidentally engage it during a shot string? NO SHOT FOR YOU!!!


Comedy is watching SEASONED "point and press" shooters transitioning to the 1911 platform and inducing stoppages during competition because of "Glock thumb", "M&P grip", and "Whoops, I forgot about the safety." That wouldn't be funny, on the other hand, in a defensive scenario.

[Pawpaw]

I agree any handgun would be more dangerous in a screwed up holster like that but I can't see any way a 1911 would be as dangerous as a Glock in that holster.

And herein is yet another excellent example of the compromises one must be aware of, and accept, in order to make an informed decision regarding defensive firearms.

"Point and press" arms eliminate the conditioning / training required to deactivate manual safety features, which is good. However, they do not discriminate between who, or what, is doing the pressing, which, as in this example, can be bad.

Arms that have manual safety features that must be deactivated in order to fire are far less susceptible to being discharged as a result of contact with foreign objects, such as a holster. This is good. However, these arms also require training / conditioning to ensure that the user deactivates these safety features prior to attempting to fire under stress. That can be bad, as some folks just won't dedicate the time to properly condition themselves, and may forget about the safety when they need to fire the most.

Pick your poison.

One of the endearing qualities of my beloved 1911's are the manual safety features. The 1911 WILL punish you for being stupid, ignorant, or a noob.

Fail to disengage the thumb safety? NO SHOT FOR YOU!!!
Weak grip that fails to disengage the grip safety? NO SHOT FOR YOU!!!!
Put your thumbs under the thumb safety and accidentally engage it during a shot string? NO SHOT FOR YOU!!!


Comedy is watching SEASONED "point and press" shooters transitioning to the 1911 platform and inducing stoppages during competition because of "Glock thumb", "M&P grip", and "Whoops, I forgot about the safety." That wouldn't be funny, on the other hand, in a defensive scenario.

An excellent post! I fixed the one and only error I saw.

[Carry4Life]

Makes me cringe to think of using a leather holster with my glock. I've got a vinyl holster that has the trigger guard stitched in such a way that it could not fold into the trigger guard area unless it physically tore away to do so. I would trust it much more long-term than soft-leather. I had been eying a soft-leather holster for my Sig P238. I'm gonna stick to polycarbonate belt clip or vinyl holsters.

[esxmarkc]

I believe our friend wore his empty holster for extended periods of time. Perhaps he could not carry at work and would simply unholster his glock and put it in the glove box. I would also suggest that when doing so he would then tighten his belt causing the crease in the holster. Overtime the leather would be "trained" to maintain the crease much the same way we would train our baseball gloves when getting them to properly fit our hand/ball.

My money is with jmra on this one. I would bet that this was the exact scenario.

I Use a soft clip on holster that has good retention that COMPLETELY covers the trigger guard and I NEVER, EVER re-holster the gun in this holster. I unclip the holster (IWB) from my belt and consciously look at the holster and gun as I slide them together. And the gun lives in this holster 24/7. If I need to remove the gun I remove the holster encasing the gun and fully covering the trigger and keep it there. I cringe at the thought of reholstering a gun in a soft holster of any type and therefore I never even attempt it.

I have a Kydex holster that I use for range practice draw and re-holstering that has the same exact depth and cant as my comfy leather daily carry holster. And like the posters above, I'm so paranoid of my shirt getting caught that I practically pull it over my head as I re-holster.

I'd bet that this guy's daily routine is not too far from mine where I find myself removing my firearm at least once during the day since it can't go all the places I go. The difference being that my gun always stays in the holster and my holster does a far better job of covering the trigger.

We could argue the merits of Glock vs. XD vs. 1911 all day in this thread to no avail. Foregoing any mechanical damage, I don't believe any one MODERN gun model is safer than the next. The safety is between your ears. Develop safe handling practices and stick to them religiously. Be aware of the possibility of ANYTHING that can cause the trigger to go bang and watch out for it like a hawk.

[The Annoyed Man]

I posted the same thing as I'm posting here, in another thread that someone else had started, unaware that this one was already underway...

Wow.

I clicked on the link to the holster's page on the Galco site:


Here's what happened to that holster:


Notice how the gun is carried in that style of holster. I suspect that, since the wrinkle in the holster was located on the body side, not the outside of the holster, a regular belt slide or other holster that carries OWB and outside the belt would not have done that. Similarly, I doubt that a proper IWB holster would have done that. Just my gut reaction...

So in retrospect, I can even guess the probable cause...

If you notice that the belt passes around the outside of the holster, and the "flat" part of the holster faces outward, you'll then realize that there would have to be softer areas of leather on the inside aspect of the holster when the pistol is sitting in it - for instance the gaps between the trigger itself and the trigger guard and frame.

Now, lots of people (myself included) often mount their holsters with a belt loop between the two belt slots on the holster, as an aid in keeping the holster from shifting around front to back along the belt. Well, the top half of that belt loop, pushing against the "soft" part of the inner aspect of the holster (easily conceivable if the wearer has even a hint of "love handles"), could well have been the wedge that pushed the leather into the space between the trigger and trigger guard. This is generally not a risk with IWB or standard OWB holsters (including outward facing belt slides) because of A) holster construction materials like Kydex and harder horsehide leathers; and B) pressure against the holster tends to be over its entire surface rather than concentrated at a single pressure point like a belt loop.

Anyway, that's kind of what jumps out at me. I've been thinking of buying a belt slide and keeping it in my vehicle as a "backup" holster, but I likely wouldn't buy this particular pattern of holster given the pictures shown here.

[The Annoyed Man]

Comedy is watching SEASONED "point and press" shooters transitioning to the 1911 platform and inducing stoppages during competition because of "Glock thumb", "M&P grip", and "Whoops, I forgot about the safety." That wouldn't be funny, on the other hand, in a defensive scenario.

That got a chuckle out of me. I would point out though that my particular M&P has a thumb safety on it. I deliberately bought it that way because two of my other carry guns are 1911s, and I wanted the manual of arms to be similar.

That said, I've had the gun for a while now, and these days I tend to use the safety only for unholstering and manipulating the gun until it is unloaded, locked back, chamber empty. When I reload the pistol, the safety goes on until the pistol is reholstered. Once holstered, I switch it off. The safety switch makes a handy thumb rest when shooting, but it isn't actually needed to safely draw and shoot the gun. I believe they were added as a requirement to meet a military contract bid, and I note that most M&Ps sold don't seem to have it.

I don't shoot competitively, and I'm only a competent but not great shot with a pistol (rifles are my meat), but I figure that if you own and carry any gun, you have a sort of moral obligation to be competent with its manual of arms. Furthermore, if you own and carry more than one platform of pistol, with more than one manual of arms, then you have a sort of moral obligation to A) be competent with all of them, and B) remember which one you strapped on that morning.

All the same, I'll bet that you're right about competition comedy.

[WildBill]

I agree with the comments posted about the dangers of using worn or defective holsters or holsters which don't completely cover the trigger guard.

But, the photographs of this "accident" just don't seem real. The whole scene looks too "staged". The holster is deformed so badly that no one in their right mind would think of using it. There are no powder burns on the pants, the pants don't have just one bullet hole, but are ripped numerous times just enough to show the "wound".
There is absolutely no blood on the pants or the car seat. The photograph shows that the "victim" has a bloodless wound to the hip that looks like the sawed-off end of a soup bone. Did the guy just come home from a Chinese restaurant and happen to have a chopstick to stick through the seat to show the path of the bullet?

Of course I may be wrong, but it makes me wonder.

[esxmarkc]

If you notice that the belt passes around the outside of the holster, and the "flat" part of the holster faces outward, you'll then realize that there would have to be softer areas of leather on the inside aspect of the holster when the pistol is sitting in it - for instance the gaps between the trigger itself and the trigger guard and frame.

Now, lots of people (myself included) often mount their holsters with a belt loop between the two belt slots on the holster, as an aid in keeping the holster from shifting around front to back along the belt.

That is exactly the way I pictured it. Now remove the gun a put in in the glove box or under the seat and you really amplify the issue. Imagine how the holster collapses as it is getting bent to conform to your body with the belt loop pushing inward on the softer spot. The thick outside doesn't give as the softer inside bends inward with the help of the belt loop pressing in on it and it starts to crease.

[Pawpaw]

I agree with the comments posted about the dangers of using worn or defective holsters or holsters which don't completely cover the trigger guard.

But, the photographs of this "accident" just don't seem real. The whole scene looks too "staged". The holster is deformed so badly that no one in their right mind would think of using it. There are no powder burns on the pants, the pants don't have just one bullet hole, but are ripped numerous times just enough to show the "wound".
There is absolutely no blood on the pants or the car seat. The photograph shows that the "victim" has a bloodless wound to the hip that looks like the sawed-off end of a soup bone. Did the guy just come home from a Chinese restaurant and happen to have a chopstick to stick through the seat to show the path of the bullet?

Of course I may be wrong, but it makes me wonder.

I believe this incident really did happen, but the pictures were staged a day or two later for illustrative purposes.

Notice the complete lack of gunshot residue (and blood) on the pants and how the material is frayed. That indicates to me that they have been washed.

There is what seems to be the remnants of some GSR on the seat. I suspect it was cleaned up also, but some of the GSR is burned into the upholstery.

Also, notice that he's not wearing the holster in any of the pictures.

[WildBill]

I believe this incident really did happen, but the pictures were staged a day or two later for illustrative purposes.

The original story did not specifically state that they were photos taken immediately after the accident. Since they did not state when they were taken, I was led to believe that these photos were of the actual "accidential discharge."

For their own credibility, if the photos not taken immediately after the discharge, the OP should have stated that they were "staged" or "recreated" after the fact.

[UpTheIrons]

For their own credibility, if the photos not taken immediately after the discharge, the OP should have stated that they were "staged" or "recreated" after the fact.

As the OP, I was, I guess 'misled' by the article's writer who said "my wife came around to my door and opened it."

I think that the 'wound' is probably more of a powder burn than a bullet graze, and the pants are ripped from the expanding gasses of the fired round with the muzzle pressed against them in the seat. Maybe they did have a chopstick in the car - I know I've had a pair or two rolling around from time to time. But the absence of gunpowder residue is suspicious.

Staged a day or two later? Probably so, but I wish the article had said so.

[Texas Size 11]

Ouch...like others, my holster covers the trigger guard and I check that sucker each time I put my weapon in it. I have this condition where I believe getting shot by myself would suck. Therefore, I do all I can to make sure that doesn't happen.