another beating at a McDonalds

[Oldgringo]

Wow, McDonald's sure has gotten dangerous in this past week.

There is a McDonalds under construction here in our little hamlet. I sure wish it was a HARDEES.

[KD5NRH]

Pepper spray the whole mess of 'em, then get between the aggressors and the victim.

Pepper spray is contagious, you know...

Kimber; it's more of a gelatinous goopy glob than a mist. The spread is easily enough to get three people from 10-12 feet.

[Keith B]

Pepper spray the whole mess of 'em, then get between the aggressors and the victim.

Pepper spray is contagious, you know...

Kimber; it's more of a gelatinous goopy glob than a mist. The spread is easily enough to get three people from 10-12 feet.

This is a good point. The newer gels are much better at avoiding spray drift, especially with the winds we get here in North Texas.

I responded to an incident at a neighborhood bar (tavern) years ago when we used CS. One officer had already arrived and entered the bar. Another officer and I were passing the front window where they had a window fan. He was behind me and I made the door and he was just in front of the window with the fan when the officer inside sprayed the individual with CS. The window fan sucked the spray out and it hit the other officer square in the face. He was incapacitated to the point he couldn't see, so we were now down to only two of us. Luckily the person who had been sprayed had surrendered to the other officer and we were able to cuff him easily.

The point is, if you try spraying a person with the wind in your face, you may end up with a dose or more of the spray than the person you are trying to repel, and you are now not able to function and they may now have an even greater advantage over you.

[RPB]

In all the college "anti-gun, carry sprays instead" articles written by the "anti-gun girls who think John Woods is cute", no one has ever replied to my comments asking if they ever tried it on windy days. Currently 20 mph and gusts to 35 mph around central Texas lately. That's like spraying out a car window going 30 mph with the older sprays.
New gels are better, than the older sprays but still, some other tools are better in some situations. It's good to have options.

[Oldgringo]

Pepper spray the whole mess of 'em, then get between the aggressors and the victim.

Pepper spray is contagious, you know...

Kimber; it's more of a gelatinous goopy glob than a mist. The spread is easily enough to get three people from 10-12 feet.

This is a good point. The newer gels are much better at avoiding spray drift, especially with the winds we get here in North Texas.

I responded to an incident at a neighborhood bar (tavern) years ago when we used CS. One officer had already arrived and entered the bar. Another officer and I were passing the front window where they had a window fan. He was behind me and I made the door and he was just in front of the window with the fan when the officer inside sprayed the individual with CS. The window fan sucked the spray out and it hit the other officer square in the face. He was incapacitated to the point he couldn't see, so we were now down to only two of us. Luckily the person who had been sprayed had surrendered to the other officer and we were able to cuff him easily.

The point is, if you try spraying a person with the wind in your face, you may end up with a dose or more of the spray than the person you are trying to repel, and you are now not able to function and they may now have an even greater advantage over you.

I reckon that in the 'heat of the moment', it would be easy to forget the admonition in the old Jim Croce song about 'spittin' in the wind and tuggin' on Superman's cape'?

[Heartland Patriot]

I think there has been a lot of good discussion and points brought up over this one. It reinforces things I have been thinking. First, this happened in the Baltimore, Maryland area. Fairly liberal area, not much on self-defense, from a legal standpoint. But even in Texas, you HAVE to know the area you are in. How things go in a defensive situation probably would play out a lot different in Houston than it would in Hondo. Second, as some have pointed out, if you are in the McD's as a patron at the time, you don't know any of those folks. So, you don't know what caused it...perhaps a bad drug deal, for example or one person's car parked too close to the other's? I agree that, even in light of the information about the man in the women's bathroom thing, there was a point when enough was enough. IF it was a dude in the women's restroom, I think those two were not in the wrong to want the dude out of there...they just went too darned far...however, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be rotting in a Maryland pen for the rest of my life for shooting two women who beat down some scaly "transgender" dude in a McDonalds. The police get paid to take care of this stuff, they are trained and they (mostly) have the legal covering if something goes wrong. Once again, my CHL is for my family, close friends and my protection...for everything else, there is 911. I didn't create the way things are in this country...but I, along with the rest of you, have to live with it for the foreseeable future.

[baldeagle]

Does it really matter what it was about

Yes if your going to draw your gun, it matters what it was about.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. The cause of an altercation does not enter into the legal justification for using deadly force in defense of another person.

Sec. 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

The reasons for the attacker using deadly force against the third person are not part of the legal justification for using deadly force.

In this particular situation, a CHL holder would have been justified, under Texas law, in drawing their weapon and threatening to use it if the two attackers did not cease and desist immediately. If they had continued to beat the victim, a CHL holder would have been justified, under Texas law, in shooting one or both of them to stop the attack.

That is exactly what I would have done in this situation. I would have drawn my weapon and ordered them to stop repeatedly. (Stop or I will shoot!) If they had continued to beat the victim, I would have shot them.

BTW, the fact that you provoked someone does not give them the right to use deadly force against you. Even if the victim provoked the two attackers, they would not be justified, under Texas law, in beating her until she suffered brain damage (which she clearly did.) The purpose of the provocation clause is to nullify a defense where you clearly provoked someone so that you could use deadly force.

[baldeagle]

- I don't think I can categorically say I would have intervened or not intervened -- it would be based on my perception the whole thing, seeing the situation in person -- but had I intervened it would not have been with any indication that I had a gun. That's my ace in the hole if things get worse instead of better. It would have been seriously aggressive though. This was way past de-escalation by talking. I think that at that point the only way to get the two girls to back off, and keep any of their supporters in the audience from intervening on their behalf, would be to indicate that I was not intimidated by them, and was in fact ready, to borrow a phrase, "to punch back twice as hard."

ELB, if you intervene with aggressive force, don't you think you would negate your right to use deadly force? How would you explain the need to draw your weapon after you had attacked them?

In my opinion, your only options are to call 911 and observe, leave or draw your weapon and threaten to use it if they do not stop immediately. If you wade in to the fight, wouldn't you lessen your ability to claim justification for the use of deadly force? Not only that, but the closer you get to the attackers, the greater the danger that your weapon could be used against you. If the two attackers turned on you, you'd be very fortunate to be able to maintain control of the situation and of your weapon, wouldn't you?

[03Lightningrocks]

Wow, McDonald's sure has gotten dangerous in this past week.

Eating at McDonalds has always been dangerous. It is a real stretch to call that garbage food.

[03Lightningrocks]

In my world it is not all or nothing. Carrying a concealed handgun does not mean I can't use other measures to intervene in a situation like this. Realize that we are all typing from different realities. I am 50 and pretty darned strong for a guy my age. Heck... I am strong for a guy of 25...LOL. One poster even mentioned he was 24... 6'4" and fit. If I were 10 years older or had other issues putting me at a tactical disadvantage, I would respond differently. Last year I had a neck injury that made it hard to function normally. I would have been useless to do anything. Other than to get beat up. If my family is with me, I respond different than if I am alone or with buddies. I go more defensive than offensive if my daughter is with me. I can't risk her safety. The whole "what would you do" varies so much it is hard to have a straight answer.

[philip964]

Man shot at McDonald's in the Woodlands last night. Gee and I just thought it was the fries that were dangerous.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/27644577/detail.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[03Lightningrocks]

Man shot at McDonald's in the Woodlands last night. Gee and I just thought it was the fries that were dangerous.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/27644577/detail.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow... and that is not a gangster neighborhood. It can happen anywhere.

[atouk]

Does it really matter what it was about

Yes if your going to draw your gun, it matters what it was about.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. The cause of an altercation does not enter into the legal justification for using deadly force in defense of another person.

Can you legally shoot someone who is beating the snot out of the mugger who attacked them?

[baldeagle]

Does it really matter what it was about

Yes if your going to draw your gun, it matters what it was about.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. The cause of an altercation does not enter into the legal justification for using deadly force in defense of another person.

Can you legally shoot someone who is beating the snot out of the mugger who attacked them?

Yes, if he is using deadly force and the mugger's life is at risk.

[philip964]

Kicking someone who is on the ground in the head is using deadly force in my opinion.