Beretta sells out the gun community

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solaritx
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Beretta sells out the gun community

#1

Post by solaritx »

FYI: Italy has been trying to ban military style weapons (not unlike the USA). Three companies voted with the govt of Italy to make this happen. They sold out the gun people in Italy.

Information: http://www.lssa.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just called one of the managers at Beretta USA and told them that not only would I work on getting their product banned at our IDPA matches but would no longer recommend nor buy their product. His name is B. Cook at Beretta USA. Suggest everyone call him or email him at bcook@berettausa.com

If this company would sell out the gun people for a bigger market share, just how much do you think they will support the same issue in the USA? Bad enough that the Brady group is the way they are....now Beretta. I see them in EXACTLY the same light :mad5

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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

#2

Post by doc.lonestar »

Was unaware of this till now.

To be honest - not a Beretta fan so this does not have an impact on my firearm choice, but I refuse to consider them going forward
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

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Post by solaritx »

see my first post. Let them know exactly how you feel. We all have learned that now is not the time to set back and be silent. Let them know.

email them: bcook@berettausa.com

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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

#4

Post by OldCannon »

I'm not sure I'd spam one person, particularly if it's not the right level executive anyway.

I think the more interesting aspect is to see if Beretta USA responds to this controversy through their website (i.e., "An open letter to our Beretta USA customers regarding recent Italian laws"). A true measure of a modern company would be to respond to this quickly and directly. If they're a more traditional marketing group, they'll pretend it's not happening and lose customers by the thousands.

Let's see what happens...
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

#5

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If a manager gets 100 or 200 or 500 emails on the subject, he will pass it up the chain. He will let people know that it is effecting HIM and his people's sales. He will (if nothing else) cover his butt.

We say nothing, they do nothing....they figure we either don't know, don't care or indifferent. At some point, people get fed up and start standing up (insert tea-party here). I am tired and if they aren't standing with us, they are standing against us.....and I for one drew a line and let my voice be heard.

Each of you do what you feel is best for you. I was once part of the silent majority. Over the last 4 years, I have been respectfully talking with my reps in congress, at the state level and at the local level. I also let people know my feelings in cases like this. I have a choice who I spend my money with. If it is someone that I might (or have) spent money with and they change their ways in a manner that I can not support, then I don't spend the money but I at least tell them why.

(oh by the way....remember the discussions about the UN taking guns away and how it could not happen here.....well this is a part of that with the Italian Govt. Don't stand together then fall seperately. Look at the current state of socialism. One small step (not noticed or rejected) then another small step and another and another and suddenly we are saying "how could this happen?" This is one of those small steps but done with a B. Arnold style action by "one of our friends")

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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

#6

Post by Derf »

I sent Mr. Cook a well reasoned letter spelling out exactly why, as a result of these actions, Beretta can expect to see a dip in their global revenue. I focused on the viral aspect of how news like this will blow up in the US shooting community, as well as informing him that I plan to educate every person that I come into contact with (at least those who own firearms) on the facts around Beretta's actions here.

I am awaiting Mr. Cook's reply, or at least that which will be mass-mailed to all of the folks pinging his inbox.

What were these people thinking? :banghead:
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

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solaritx wrote:If a manager gets 100 or 200 or 500 emails on the subject, he will pass it up the chain. He will let people know that it is effecting HIM and his people's sales. He will (if nothing else) cover his butt.
I think it's good to deliver the message to Beretta, but the best message will come from sales (or lack thereof). It's safe to say that this is a "done deal" and it's HIGHLY unlikely this will change, so rants to Beretta probably won't have any effect.

ARFCOM thread here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/121006 ... __111.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This really seems bizarre though, I just can't imagine every gun maker in Italy would suddenly capitulate. Perhaps the people on the board were French? :lol:
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

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Post by 74novaman »

They probably looked at Rugers example and figured they could get away with it.

After all, good old Bill Ruger said these things leading up to the assault weapons ban:
"No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun."
"I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round mags or my folding stock."
The following is an excerpt from the March 30, 1989 letter Bill Ruger sent to every member of Congress.

"The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines.

"By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining 'assault rifle' and 'semi-automatic rifles' is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item.

"A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives."

William B. Ruger
Sturm, Ruger Firearms
Gun Companies have shown before they are willing to sell us "simple civilians" out, as long as they get to keep their lucrative govt and police contracts.

By all means, we should let them know we're displeased, but I'm sure they're not too concerned about this crippling their business.
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

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Sounds like they did what Ruger and Smith & Wesson did and did what would be in best interest of their bottom line. Pity.
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

#10

Post by PracticalTactical »

I was considering getting a 9mm pistol for students to borrow to familiarize themselves with more guns. I was thinking of getting a Glock 17, Beretta 92, or a Ruger P95. Beretta is definitely not in the running now. If I had already purchased a Beretta, it'd be up for sale or trade right now.

This isn't just one gun they've lost a sale on--I currently lend out a 1911 and Ruger Blackhawk for students to fire and often I see them at the range a few weeks later with one of those guns in their hand.

I'm sure I'm not the only influential person in the firearms community who is thinking this way.
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

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SQLGeek wrote:Sounds like they did what Ruger and Smith & Wesson did and did what would be in best interest of their bottom line. Pity.
Perhaps a more fair questions is: Would S&W or Ruger behave this way now? I've certainly had my bitter pills about what happened, but I realize that these are two different companies now, run by different owners. They are entitled to a second chance, IMHO.
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

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Post by SQLGeek »

lkd wrote:
SQLGeek wrote:Sounds like they did what Ruger and Smith & Wesson did and did what would be in best interest of their bottom line. Pity.
Perhaps a more fair questions is: Would S&W or Ruger behave this way now? I've certainly had my bitter pills about what happened, but I realize that these are two different companies now, run by different owners. They are entitled to a second chance, IMHO.
I'm not indicting Ruger and S&W of today. It's hard to argue they didn't do then what they saw was the best interest in preserving their company. Bill Ruger not only threw gun owners under the bus, but drove it himself. That said, the Ruger Company of today is far different than Bill's vision. They have an AR and are specifically marketing towards the concealed carry crowd. I'd buy a Ruger today and between their 1911, LC9 and SR9c, I probably will.

Also, in my opinion, S&W did what they thought was best for themselves but they aren't owned anymore by the British company they were owned by. They were guilty of a far less serious offense IMO.

My point simply was that it seems Beretta found a way to safeguard their ownership of the Italian market for EBRs.
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

#13

Post by rubiconjp »

solaritx wrote:If a manager gets 100 or 200 or 500 emails on the subject, he will pass it up the chain. He will let people know that it is effecting HIM and his people's sales. He will (if nothing else) cover his butt.
Good point. Email sent!

Was also considering a Beretta 92FS and shotgun. Not anymore!
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Re: Beretta sells out the gun community

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Post by The Annoyed Man »

This might be a good chance to pick up a used Beretta at a very good price. :mrgreen:

That was a small joke. I do not own any Nomex undergarments, so please don't flame me....

I am reminded of when the cover story of the May 2011 issue of America's First Freedom (an NRA publication) was about the death of former Senator James A. McClure of Idaho. I'm going to take a chance on the NRA not minding, and I'm going to quote a significant chunk of that article because it speaks DIRECTLY to how to handle this type of issue. The part in red is the crux of it:

http://www.nrapublications.org/index.ph ... -a-legend/
by James O.E. Norell,
Contributing Editor:
If McClure’s effectiveness is to be understood, a single phrase is critical to why his presence made the difference: victorious turning points.

In addition to the McClure-Volkmer Act, two others come to mind. Both were very early in his career.
The first came with a 1975 legislative battle over the power of the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) to regulate any aspect of firearms and ammunition. To this day, regulation of firearms and ammunition by bureaucratic “consumer” edict is a key element in the modern gun-ban movement’s arsenal. The McClure doctrine on that score has held the line to this day.

What McClure and his Senate allies did in that battle left his opponents shell-shocked and changed
the political landscape.

It began with a petition before the CPSC filed Feb. 14, 1975, by the Committee for Hand Gun Control Inc. demanding that the commission adopt “a rule banning the sale of bullets for handguns. The rule would except such sales to police, licensed security guards, the military and licensed pistol clubs.”

The group—which later became Handgun Control, Inc., and now the Brady Campaign—claimed that handgun ammunition constituted “hazardous substances” and “present[ed] an unreasonable risk of injury and no feasible standard would protect the public.”

The petition received widespread publicity and put the fledgling gun-ban vultures of hci/Brady Campaign on the media map.

As part of the regulatory process, the CPSC asked for public comments. An outraged McClure issued a single press release attacking the proposed “bullet-ban” rule, and listed the CPSC’s address for public comment.

The Associated Press ran McClure’s release on the national “a” wire (the ap’s most significant news stories of the day). The result was almost universal ridicule by hundreds of media outlets, led by The New York Times—all calling the “bullet-ban” a national referendum on gun control. In their circus effort to create a new avenue for gun control, the media published the CPSC address in editorial comment that reached millions of homes.
 
The ridicule heaped on McClure greatly amused the senator. He knew something the scribblers at The New York Times couldn’t understand—and still don’t understand. This was purely a consumer issue, and the consumers were the tens of millions of gun owners who since 1968 had paid the price for criminals and assassins with their rights.

This was an “enough is enough” moment.

When the comments were counted, the media’s crowing about this being a national referendum on gun control was right on the money.

More than 400,000 Americans wrote individual letters against the ban. And some of those letters contained petitions with additional tens of thousands of signatures. That response was the biggest in the history of federal regulations. That avalanche of letters and calls to CPSC generated by NRA and McClure’s press release produced this result and energized the nation’s beleaguered gun owners for future battles.

Conversely, even with near total media support and the loud backing of every anti-gun politician and gun-control group in the country, support for the ban totaled a mere 500 letters!

With the final score at 400,000 to 500, Jim McClure termed it a “political spontaneous combustion.”
But the turning point didn’t end there.

In the spring of 1975 at the NRA Annual Meetings in San Diego, Calif., the NRA Board of Directors formalized the Executive Committee’s earlier decision to create the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, headed by Harlon B. Carter, whose life’s ambition was to see NRA take its place as the most powerful voice for the Second Amendment.

NRA-ILA was created at a time when NRA members and gun owners across the country faced imminent disaster on all fronts from anti-gun groups, their congressional allies and a hostile national media. All were on the march after enacting the 1968 Gun Control Act, pushing seemingly unstoppable “Saturday Night Special” legislation that would have banned most handguns, as well as CPSC’s ban on handguns and handgun ammunition.

Building on the modest capabilities of the existing Office of Legislative Affairs, NRA-ILA’s leadership team began the arduous task of recruiting and training new staff, developing grassroots member communications, and busting shoe-leather developing relationships with Senators, Congressmen, and their staffs.

At the time, I was McClure’s press secretary and handled the senator’s Second Amendment issues.
In one of those events which changed the course of history, Sen. McClure and his staff were approached by three young men from NRA—Richard L. Corrigan, head of the new ILA-Federal Affairs Division; Michael J. Parker, ILA general counsel; and Russell Wisor, Corrigan’s deputy. They asked a simple question, “What can we do?” With that meeting, a bond was formed that lasted until McClure’s retirement.

ILA wasted no time stirring the grassroots with a series of legislative mailings and a heavy, direct lobbying presence in the Senate and House. Those efforts were matched in the U.S. House to support U.S. Rep. John Dingell’s, D-Mich., companion CPSC bill.

Dick Corrigan observed, “While we didn’t know it at the time, in retrospect, the other side made a serious miscalculation. Sen. McClure in his leadership, teaming with ILA and the nation’s gun owners, enlisted friends and allies on both sides of the aisle and recast the issue in terms of consumers’ rights. Victory on this issue broke the anti-gun momentum and laid the basis for victories way into the future. It gave gun owners hope and the will to fight.”

The CPSC fight came to a head in the Senate on July 18, 1975. In the floor debate, the McClure forces were opposed by Massachusetts U.S. Sen. Ted Kennedy, the gun-ban powerhouse, who pushed for an amendment to give the CPSC power to regulate firearms and ammunition.

He lost on a voice vote. Upon demanding a roll-call vote, Kennedy sat stunned as, one by one, senators voted against him—among them many Democrats whom he believed to be in his pocket. When all was said and done, Kennedy was handed a stinging defeat. He lost by a vote of 75 to 11.
For the gun-ban crowd, it was a turning point all right—a point of no return. It was the loss of losses.

For those who voted with McClure, especially Democrats, there was something remarkable—a grateful, heartfelt response encouraged by the new NRA-ILA consisting of countless thanks from the real gun lobby, the millions of consumers whose rights were endangered by the CPSC regulation. Gratitude felt good.

If this first critical turning point came in a very public forum, the second has remained private and untold—until now. It involved the establishment of McClure’s ultimately trusting relationship with the firearm industry and his personal intervention in what could have been a lasting disaster for gun owners.

More than anything else about gun control, McClure understood that there would never be an end to the demands by the Kennedy-led cabal. For him, compromise on the Second Amendment was not an option.

Shortly after the CPSC vote, I received a visit from a personal friend who was also an industry representative in Washington, D.C. He was sounding an alarm that could have cost him his job.

He said that as a matter of conscience, he was bound to give McClure some documents with respect to agreements between a few handgun manufacturers and New Jersey U.S. Rep. Peter Rodino, then the most powerful anti-gun member of the U.S. House.

The package included correspondence between industry officials and Rodino, then chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Rodino had already announced his intention to push a new ban on so-called “Saturday Night Specials.” It was a serious threat.

The package delivered was deeply alarming. In addition to correspondence, there was a draft of legislation prepared by industry lawyers—Washington insiders—that would have banned many models of handguns. It was very well crafted.

McClure saw it as a blatant restraint of trade. It cut out many innovative small companies by specifically requiring patented safety features that existed only on handgun models produced by a handful of companies.

McClure was as angry as his staff had ever seen him. He drafted a letter to the CEOs of those companies. Each paragraph began, “Tell me it ain’t so.”

Allowing time for his message to sink in, McClure called a meeting with the companies’ CEOs, who were ushered into the senator’s office.

McClure’s intent was to lay out the political realities of the new Senate. With none of the usual small talk, he spoke directly and gravely. After the CPSC victory, he said, it is clear that your consumers are the real power. Trust them. Everything has changed, and there is neither reason nor room for any compromise.

He told them with certainty that the line would be held in the Senate; that Kennedy’s gun control forces simply did not have the votes for a gun bill. But, he warned, there was one element that could change that dynamic—an industry intervention.

Brandishing the industry letters, he said softly, “I know everything—all of it.”

As he started to explain his plans for positive action in the Senate, McClure was interrupted with:
“Senator, you don’t understand. We believe that unless we act, our enemies in Congress will put us out of business within five years.”

McClure’s response was quiet and measured.

“No. You’re the one who doesn’t understand. You do this, and I will put you out of business a lot quicker than your enemies will.”

At that point, one CEO stood, and with gravity said, “Thank you very much, senator. We get the message. We trust you.”

That was that. The meeting ended, and ultimately so did the deal with Rep. Rodino.


Without that event, there is no doubt that an industry-supported partial handgun ban might well have become reality. Perhaps the ce0s’ position was understandable. In the face of a Senate-passed ban in 1972, a compromise option might have made sense.

But not after the CPSC fight—the winds had changed.

Furthermore, because of this pivotal see-the-light moment, the industry ultimately joined its consumers in fighting the so-called Saturday Night Special issue. As a result of that united front, the handgun ban never happened.
And that, gentlemen, is how you handle Beretta here in the U.S., if they show any signs of such perfidy either here or abroad. You get get the most powerful, most 2nd Amendment friendly members of Congress, regardless of party affiliation (the Volkmer of McClure-Volkmer was a democrat), and you call the offending gun maker or makers into some senator's office and tell them, "if you persist in this foolishness, I'll make sure you're out of business in 5 years" just like McClure did. There are other makers of 9mm pistols and shotguns who would like nothing better than to have a chance to unseat Beretta as the (nearly) sole supplier of 9mm pistols for military use. I'm thinking Glock, S&W M&P, Springfield XDm, H&K USP just to name five off the top of my head. There are others. It's a pretty safe bet that polymer framed pistols have come a long way, and would certainly be up to the rigors of military use. Plus, they are lighter.

Beretta doesn't want to lose those future contracts. You and I individually might buy a half dozen pistols in the space of 3 or 4 years. The U.S. Army and the Marine Corps buy them by the hundreds of thousands. If you or I threaten to never buy another Beretta again, that's fine as a personal protest, but it isn't going to have much more effect on their bottom line that threatening to hold your breath until your face turns blue. But have their single biggest customer, the U.S. Department of Defense, threaten to stop buying their products, that's when you'll see them "come to Jesus." And the way to do that is to get powerful 2nd Amendment supporters in Congress (and they do exist) to get involved.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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