I'm disturbed...

[speedsix]

(...I knew you were...) and I agree that we need something far more rigorous than the qualifying shoot or the shooting allowed in an indoor range to get/keep us sharp...the hard part of that is finding a place to shoot it...most ranges don't want any shenanigans other than shoot the target...understandable, given the liabilities...but we could benefit from such a plan if we can find a place in which to carry it out...

[The Annoyed Man]

Primarily, though, I want folks to focus on their close-range, high-speed shooting skills, not their ability to scoot 'n' shoot; a lot of folks just can't scoot, for various reasons, and I don't want to exclude them from trying out for it.

Andy, I don't know if you had me in mind, but this sounds perfect for a guy like me who, among other reasons, started carrying a gun because he can't scoot. If you ever find a place to run this drill, I would be interested in trying it out.

[CWOOD]

Let us know what you come up with. We will work it into one of the Texas Tactical IDPA Matches.

Andy and Mike,

I am assuming that your are talking about the 'old' Air Marshall qualifier that used the hour-glass target as your starting point...the one with 3 strings, turn and draw etc.

I have used it from time to time and it is indeed a very challenging course of fire. Unfortunately, I understand that they no longer use it.

I have toyed with the idea of converting it to an IDPA course of fire. Because of the nature of the original qualifier, it would have to be done as multiple string stage. The standard IDPA target could be modified to make hard cover of everything except the -0 and -1 areas to replicate the hour glass target. The original qualifier uses 3 targets but a modification could be made to use only two for the IDPA strings, to move things along a bit faster for a group.

Andy, actually the short time and low round count would not be a real issue for IDPA. In a well run club that uses a variety of stages for the shooters, a 'quick and dirty, up close and personal' stage can be a very interesting and fun diversion.

Mike, at Texas Tactical, has been known to include a stage with three strings of a 1 shot draw and fire exercise at arms length distance.

Your topic has inspired me to find my old paperwork on the Air Marshal drill to work on this. It could even be scored as a standard IDPA scenario but also have a pass/fail component using the Air Marshall standards. Might be really interesting.

Andy, best of luck on your efforts and definitely keep us posted.

By the way, I really do enjoy your many thoughtful, and thought provoking, contributions to this site. You are a valuable asset to TexasCHLForum. Thank you!

[CWOOD]

By the way, if anyone wants information regarding the qualification drill we have been talking about, just google 'air marshal qualification' and you will see written descriptions of the drills and target and there will also be some youtube videos of folks shooting it.

Each individual string as well as cumulative scores and times must be passed or it counts as a 'fail'. For the Air Marshals, that was a fly or no-fly, result.

Good luck

[MoJo]

Andy,

What you are describing sounds a lot like Jim Higginbottom's 5-5-5 marksmanship drill. 5 shots, 5 yards, 5" square target. He specifies low ready start you fire as fast as you can keeping all five shots in the square. You add ten seconds to your time for each hit outside the square. The goal is to do it in 3 seconds or less.

The reason for low ready Jim says you are already way behind the curve if your gun is still in it's holster when the fight starts.

[CWOOD]

MoJo, that sounds like a pretty demanding skill test too. Please don't think my comments below in any way reflect poorly on that skill set.

If Andy's specific drill is based on the Air Marshal test, it likely encompasses a wider variety of skills. His would probably be closer to what the Air Marshals and we as CHL'ers might have to encounter. Part of the AM qualifier begins with a draw from concealment, it involves reloads, multiple targets and even turn and fire. Since we are law abiding civilians who are required to conceal, we are ALWAYS going to be starting behind the curve. Perhaps we should just incorporate that handicap into our practice and training.

The above is worth approximately $0.02, but it is mine. Two cents just doesn't go as far as it used to.

[Excaliber]

It's a lot harder to come up with a quick and dirty test that requires a well developed set of street relevant skills than might be apparent at first, but I'm sure you're up to the challenge.

I think the concept is terrific, and look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[strider67]

I am definatly up for a challenge. Being a 'new' CHL-er, I try to learn new things daily, as I most certainly have been doing on this forum. I have also learned that there is MUCH more to being a responsible CHL, than just standing in front of paper and shooting good groups. I have recently been investigating some advanced tactical and skills classes in my area, as well.

Although I feel I am just starting on my journey up the 'tactical skills' mountain, I know I have many good footprints here to follow...

[AdioSS]

it sounds like this could be easily done at my local club

[Skiprr]

It's a lot harder to come up with a quick and dirty test that requires a well developed set of street relevant skills than might be apparent at first, but I'm sure you're up to the challenge.

I think the concept is terrific, and look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Put me on the interested list, too.

One of my soapboxes has been that if you never start your shooting practice closer than three yards, you're missing a whole 'nother universe of possible urban encounters that will--as all the statistics suggest--probably happen at less than nine feet. That so few CHLers practice close-contact shooting and retention makes those skills, to me, all the more important to highlight.

Sittin' here trying to run through my mind what could be done as a fairly comprehensive defensive pistol skills test with a single string of fire consisting of only a handful of rounds, that incorporates the draw-from-holster contact-distance shooting I think is vital, without a significant amount of footwork, and within the realm of reasonable range restrictions (no shooting the side berms, for example) has me at a loss and scratchin' my head. But that's only a few minutes of muddied thinkin', and Andy's obviously been planning this for a while. Only thing I can come up with would involve at least three targets (so you can move on a diagonal and still have a straight-downrange target to engage) and at least 15-20 feet of movement...or two targets, less movement, but two separate strings of fire. Even then it would take a lotta liberties with street realism.

For a timed test, maybe take a page out of the IDPA book and allow for two or three different skill-level certifications for folks who can accomplish the shooting, but not yet as quickly. Another possibility is what some instructors, like Farnam, do: Farnam has a course-ending standardized skills test that's pass/fail, but if you want to move on and be able to be qualified as an instructor, there's a much tighter minimum completion time.

Don't know about the "gunfighter" or "gunslinger" designations. Seems like that could carry a negative connotation. Maybe something as simple as Defensive Operator Grade I and Defensive Operator Grade II?

Just don't sell badges...

[Excaliber]

It's a lot harder to come up with a quick and dirty test that requires a well developed set of street relevant skills than might be apparent at first, but I'm sure you're up to the challenge.

I think the concept is terrific, and look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Put me on the interested list, too.

One of my soapboxes has been that if you never start your shooting practice closer than three yards, you're missing a whole 'nother universe of possible urban encounters that will--as all the statistics suggest--probably happen at less than nine feet. That so few CHLers practice close-contact shooting and retention makes those skills, to me, all the more important to highlight.

Sittin' here trying to run through my mind what could be done as a fairly comprehensive defensive pistol skills test with a single string of fire consisting of only a handful of rounds, that incorporates the draw-from-holster contact-distance shooting I think is vital, without a significant amount of footwork, and within the realm of reasonable range restrictions (no shooting the side berms, for example) has me at a loss and scratchin' my head. But that's only a few minutes of muddied thinkin', and Andy's obviously been planning this for a while. Only thing I can come up with would involve at least three targets (so you can move on a diagonal and still have a straight-downrange target to engage) and at least 15-20 feet of movement...or two targets, less movement, but two separate strings of fire. Even then it would take a lotta liberties with street realism.

For a timed test, maybe take a page out of the IDPA book and allow for two or three different skill-level certifications for folks who can accomplish the shooting, but not yet as quickly. Another possibility is what some instructors, like Farnam, do: Farnam has a course-ending standardized skills test that's pass/fail, but if you want to move on and be able to be qualified as an instructor, there's a much tighter minimum completion time.

Don't know about the "gunfighter" or "gunslinger" designations. Seems like that could carry a negative connotation. Maybe something as simple as Defensive Operator Grade I and Defensive Operator Grade II?

Just don't sell badges...

Even a single target at armslength or closer with only the "bowling pin" vital area of a silhouette counting for points and a very tight time frame (2 hits in 2 seconds, including draw from concealment) would be an extremely challenging exercise for most, as well as a very realistic test of relevant defensive skills.

Under the firearms qualification program I designed, every officer in my agency had to meet a standard of 3 rounds in 3 seconds at 6 feet from a secured holster as the first exercise, but they got partial credit for being outside the "bowling pin" zone. Most still put all their hits in the primary target area. The fastest guys could get 5 or sometimes 6 good hits in that time. (The entire course consisted of 25 rounds under various time constraints out to 25 yards. With the smaller round count, each shot carried more points and misses were heavily penalized).

There was great weeping and gnashing of teeth when I first put it into place, and the initial failure rate was high. The primary complaint was that it was "unfair" of me to require that sharply upgraded level of performance. I pointed out that there weren't any allowances or do overs for poor technique on the street, and the time frames of gunfights stayed the same regardless of poor performance. The fastest guy generally won. The chief stood behind me on the issue, and we worked hard to bring skill sets up to realistic levels.

Once our training program brought everyone up to speed, everyone passed with little trouble and it even became a point of pride for the officers that they met a far higher standard than any other agency in the county.

While that program was in place, they didn't lose any gunfights, and quite a few were avoided when bad guys changed plans in midstream when they saw the speed and no wasted motion efficiency of the officers' draw technique. The bad guys correctly figured the officers' shooting skills would likely be on par, and they showed uncharacteristically good judgment when they decided they didn't want to be on the downrange side of that display.

[rdcrags]

I'd like to take a shot at it. <pun intended>

Many of those on this forum wouldn't miss it. Oops!