Sight Picture/Target Alignment Question...

[TXCHL7474]

About 3 months ago I purchased a Ruger SP-101 (.357) from a buddy who let me try it out. It was like we were made for each other (total "love at first sight/shot!") I love that gun! So far, I've put about 300 rounds through it and I've gotten to the point that I can easily create 4 - 6 inch patterns at 10 and 15 yards all day long. I'm no expert marksman but that's decent enough for me...especially with a .357.

The problem is that I have to consistently aim about 2 inches right and about 4 inches high to hit dead center. While that's fine with a high contrast target with a bulls-eye in the center, it's not very practical with a noisy background and it takes a lot longer and a lot more concentration to mentally "compute" the shot.

My question is...are there any techniques, other than compensating as described above, to actually get the sight picture and the final impact point to line up???? I'm pretty certain that it is an issue with my technique. Note that the SP-101 is a fixed sight weapon so no adjusting there!

Help!!!

[RPB]

I know some sights can be adjusted; some of mine have front sight spacers to lower/raise point of aim , some have rear adjustment and if dovetailed they can be slid/drifted to one side more... I"m not familiar with that revolver though to know sights type ...

All I know assuming sights are ok or if they are not adjustable ....is practice

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k57/p ... rgetII.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.makarov.com/graphics/targets/anatarget.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TXCHL7474]

Thanks RPB!

That is exactly the type of information I was looking for! Like I said, I've been pretty certain that it was a technique issue (isn't it always), I just couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong.

BTW...if anyone can recommend a good instructor in the DFW area, I would be very interested.

[TXCHL7474]

RPB...thanks again for the great information.

The diagrams you provided were right on with respect to my problem...jerking.

A few days ago I discovered an AWESOME exercise where I practice with only 3 rounds in the cylinder (the SP-101 has a 5 rd. capacity). I look away while I spin the cylinder to randomly orient the rounds and I blindly re-spin the cylinder after each time it fires. This creates a situation where I anticipate it going off every time but when it doesn't I can CLEARLY see what I am doing wrong. In my case...I was jerking hard enough to drive nails with the barrel. It also makes the ammo last a lot longer and adds a degree of excitement to practicing.

This is probably an old technique but I thought I would share it with the rest of the noobies out there.

AndyC...I'll PM you. I am still very interested! Thanks!

[A-R]

ol' Andy-wan speaks the truth. I've seen this in myself when using snap caps.

[Divided Attention]

Compvest put an empty casing on top of my slide and had me dry fire until I could do it without making the casing fall off..... snap caps help with the muscle memory, but when at the range the brass has made a great visual with my daughters and sister in law - makes you leave your eyes open too. Reflexes are hard to overcome sometimes.

[Dave2]

So, a "quick" question about this target... What do A, C, E, G, H, and I mean?



Sorry about making you all see angry Cute Puppy. In my defense, he is cute.

[Skiprr]

So, a "quick" question about this target... What do A, C, E, G, H, and I mean?

Sorry about making you all see angry Cute Puppy. In my defense, he is cute.

A. Some people watch too many movies and see actors shoot a mild, blank 9mm but intentionally follow through way up over their heads...this so that the viewer really knows they fired the shot. I've seen the same sort of anticipated action at the range with folks thinking the muzzle should be bouncing up 18 inches, so they start that move before they ever break the shot.

Most times, though, the problem here is an unconscious pressing forward, toward the target, before breaking the shot. Think of this as pushing from the bottom of the wrist. You're anticipating a force pressing back against you as the projectile launches, so you press slightly forward.

C. "Thumbing" is the application of too much lateral pressure from the thumb(s). In a modern, two-handed, thumbs-forward grip on a semi-auto, it can happen if the offhand thumb is too low and pressing fully against the frame of the pistol. If there's too much offhand thumb on the frame, and you tighten that grip unconsciously as the shot breaks, it nudges the muzzle toward your strong side.

E. The opposite of A. The same "pushing" effect can occur, but here you are "cowboying," or pushing the muzzle down as you fire. Watch an old black-and-white western, and you'll see some of the actors look like they're trying to throw the bullets out of the barrel, give 'em that little bit of extra oomph. This is similar. In anticipation of recoil, you are pushing down and typically a little forward.

I don't think I ever--or at least almost never--see the wrist being relaxed too early, as mentioned on the target. Recoil anticipation is almost always about tightening up, not going loose.

G. Sorta the opposite of "thumbing." This is more likely to happen with a thumb-down single handed grip, or a one-thumb-tucked-under-the-other two-hand grip. If there is less lateral stability on the offhand side of the frame, increasing grip pressure with the strong-hand fingers just before the shot breaks will tend to move the muzzle down and toward the offhand side.

H. Unless you have huge hands or are working with a tiny pistol, this is usually too little trigger finger, not too much. In most cases with a semi-auto, you want the middle of the first pad of the index finger to be on the center of the face of the trigger. The trigger can, mechanically, move only one way: back toward the frame. If the contact point with the trigger is too far toward the tip of the index finger, when pressure is applied the tendency is for the index finger to push against the trigger rather than pulling straight back, in line with the mechanical motion of the trigger. That lateral pressure from the trigger finger will push the muzzle toward the offhand side.

I. This could be interchangeable with B., as far as I'm concerned. It really depends on the pistol you're shooting.

Recoil--despite what we see in movies--is not a straight-line force. The rifling in the barrel imparts a spin to the projectile to stabilize it in flight, and (equal and opposite reactions) the explosive launching of the spinning projectile imparts a rotational element to the recoil. This is felt less in lower-powered guns, guns that have substantial mass, and/or guns that allow a very high grip close to the line of the chamber (like a high-beavertail 1911). Whether the rifling in the barrel is a left-hand or right-hand twist depends on the manufacturer, but that rotational element to the recoil, a torque, will be opposite the direction of the rifling.

If your subconscious knows which way that torque is affecting recoil for your gun, you might tend to anticipate the recoil and start to let the muzzle creep in that direction just before the shot breaks. Frankly, this is a less common trigger control problem than most others, partly because that rotational element to the recoil isn't severe in most common defensive handguns (maybe .357 J-frames aside) if you start out with a high, stable grip and aren't literally scrunching up your face in anticipation of the recoil. Now, if you've decided to get into hunting with a handgun and are going out to the range twice a week with a brand new .454 Casull and slamming a hundred rounds downrange each visit...my bet is that you will definitely begin to anticipate the torque in the recoil.

BTW, targets like this can be very useful, but you have to take the pie-chart segments with a grain of salt. For example, jerking the trigger isn't always gonna put a round into the "F" slice for a right-hander. In the general vicinity, yes; but a trigger jerk could be putting rounds almost anywhere into E, F, or G...even D if he has too much finger on the trigger.

I've also found "diagnostic" targets not terribly helpful for some shooters at certain stages. If the shooter is getting clear, consistent groups, the targets can help eliminate some possibilities and give you some mechanical elements to think about. But if the shooter is peppering the target and not getting definable, five shot groups on a consistent basis, it's time to heed Vince Lombardi's "This is a football" speech and start back with the fundamentals and benchrest work.

I joked about the .454 Casull, but flinch and recoil anticipation is one reason I'm a big believer in dry-fire practice, that it should be the majority of your trigger time, live-fire a minority. I also think owning a .22 is a great idea. Not only is the ammo cheap for practice, but the live-fire practice is generally of high quality because there's no recoil to begin negatively conditioning your subconscious mind.

Another overlooked factor is hearing protection. Recoil anticipation isn't just about the physical action of the pistol; it's also very much about sound. For a noticeable flinch, I've had good luck in the past having the shooter go immediately to extra NRR protection. If they use only muffs, have 'em put in plugs underneath the muffs, and vice versa. They don't have to stay like that--could be difficult to hear range commands in certain situations--but extra noise dampening can be very helpful when working to overcome a flinch.

As always, these are just personal opinions and observations. YMMV.

Oh, and four months is nowhere near adequate thread necromancy to make Cute Puppy angry.

[fishfree]

A useful drill with a revolver is to take 5 (or as many needed) spent casings & fill with silicone, glue stick, epoxy (whatever). (The filling helps keep debris out of a clean barrel if dry firing. )

Fill all but one chamber of the cylinder with these dummy rounds. Put a live round in the last chamber.

Spin the chamber. Close & latch. The live round is now randomly located. It might be the first, the last or any other one.


Firing one round at a time slows you down; exposes flinching when it happens; exposes jerking the trigger when it happens as well. Especially when the hammer/striker drops on a dummy.

Without the dummy rounds your peripheral vision may (probably will) pick up on the rim of the live round as it comes up in the rotation.
Slowing down by firing the 0-5 dummy rounds then the live round is useful in itself. Add an additional delay of a minute or 2 or 5 by walking down to the target or fiddling with the gun. (you might rotate which chamber will hold the live round to reduce GSR buildup in just one chamber) The object is to force yourself to (a) slow everything down (impacts that trigger jerk) and (b) take the time to think about what you did and focus on what you need to do in the next firing.

some more drills are found here:
http://www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/ ... #standards

[Seabear]

If you are trying to shoot for accuracy in a double action mode you need to learn how to "stage" the gun. That is where you pull the trigger back to the point where the hammer is as far back as it will travel, and you will hear or feel the cylinder lock in place, then you squeeze off the shot. It would be more like shooting single action, which is what most people do to shoot for accuracy at targets.

Does your gun shoot in both double and single action? If so, you could try a few shots from single action mode to see if it is a snapping issue. Personally I don't like shooting any of my carry revolvers in single action mode simply because I don't want to get in that habit and do it under pressure. In fact the only revolver I carry any more is my Taurus 605 .357 snubby. It is doulbe action only with a factory bobbed hammer that is flush with the frame. No single action available, but it stages beautifuly and lets off with a nice crisp click.

[fishfree]

If it was me,

I would first try and determine if it the operator, or the gun.

Double up on ears, like Skippr said.

You could let a good shot shoot it, and see what happens. If you don't know a good shooter, try some good sand bags, and shoot really slow. If you find the sights are still shooting low and left, try a heavier bullet (heavier shoot higher), and knock the rear sight to the right. If the sights are not dove-tailed, it is possible to have a gunsmith file some off of the front sight.

If the above indicates that the sights are proper, and the issue is the operator, try this.

A pistol is very much subject to the grip you take on the gun. It is possible you could adjust the manner you grip the gun, or possibly replace the grips with something else.

I second the idea of shooting off sand bags to help determine if it is the shooter or the gun. But it usually turns out to be the shooter. Either response to the bang or an improper or weak grip on the gun.

On this model the front sights are pinned I believe and hence can be replaced as a corrective measure if by chance it is the gun. Even better, if the sights are the problem, then front and rear sights can be upgraded http://www.gunblast.com/Bowen-SP101.htm .

Assuming the rear sight is a gutter sight (for ccw) and adding an adjustable rear sight is unwanted then send it back to Ruger (if it is the gun and not the shooter). I believe Ruger would shoot it from a rest and return it with the target if it is fine or give a replacement otherwise (or so I hear).