Handgun equipment/technique questions from Newbie

[porterdriver]

First let me say that I am new to the world of short guns and as such have several novice questions.

I am shooting a XDM .40 w/3.8" barrel; it is my carry/home/soon-to-be CHL gun.

I normally shoot a nice tight group with the factory sights. Then I thought that I might be better served if I installed Crimson Trace guard-mount laser so that I have "simply" get the dot on the target and fire.

Sounds good, or at least logical.

Problem is that now (at the range) I am shooting a much bigger group when using the laser as a point-and-shoot. Not as thrilled with this as I thought I'd be. I sometimes have to search for the"dot" and then it dances all over when it's on the target. I know that is a function of my movements being transferred 15 yards down range.

For self/home defense should I keep working on my 'laser' technique? Assuming, that in-the-dark, the laser dot would be more accurate than trying to get enough light to use the conventional sights.

Should I practice with conventional sights and laser? So that I can more quickly acquire a target with both?

Is there a technique or trick to keep the dot more steady down range?

Also, what is te best procedure to sight-in the laser? It says that it came sighted-in to be accurate at 50 yards but I have fooled around with it so much that I have no confidence that it is where it should be.

I know, a million newbie questions but all answers and opinions appreciated.

Thanks, Porterdriver

[MoJo]

Lasers are good at showing you how much you shake. If it's too dark to see your sights it's too dark to positively identify your target. Most people shoot bigger groups with a laser because they are concentrating on where the dot is and rushing their shot.

A good vise is the best way to steady a laser.

Seriously, I don't like lasers and will not use one except as a training aid.

[LabRat]

Porterdriver,

I have to say I've had the same experience as you with the CT lasers.

I'm not the steadiest hand in the world and the CT lasers just move too much for me to use, either as a training tool or a situation-dependent tool.

What I believe was happening was this; I was watching the laser and trying to fire when I saw the red dot on the target. Not taking into account the nearly constant movement of my gun hand while executing the firing. That movement was influencing the bullet downrange and the result was horrible grouping.

I re-examined my need for a laser:

1. Most encounters happen at "bad breath" distance; Less that 2 meters; do I need a laser for that?

2. At night, the laser shows up well, but I must be aware of my target, the threat it presents and anything behind it that might come into play when I pull the trigger; If its pitch dark, I don't think all that data would be available.

3. Will a laser in the pitch dark of night scare someone who might be trying to hurt me? Yes, but again, if that's its only use, then given #2 above, its not likely I would know that information either.

In the end, I disposed of the CT lasers. I found no credible use for them. They were cool, don't get me wrong, but not useful. Even as a training tool, they were not what I thought they would be. Went back to using my regular sighting techniques and my grouping straightened back up nicely.

LabRat

[snatchel]

I had a laser on my rifle in my military days... Think thats where they should stay- on rifles. Handguns just don't have the support like rifles do, and unless you practice a whole lot with it, they are pretty useless. Sell your laser, and use that money to install, or have someone install, a good set of night sights. They work well, and in most cases better than factory sights. They show well in low light conditions. Besides, you dont want to become totally dependent on a battery operated laser.

[RoyGBiv]

Solution...

[thatguy]

Porterdriver wrote,

Problem is that now (at the range) I am shooting a much bigger group when using the laser as a point-and-shoot. Not as thrilled with this as I thought I'd be. I sometimes have to search for the"dot" and then it dances all over when it's on the target. I know that is a function of my movements being transferred 15 yards down range.





I have heard it called "chasing the light" and I have seen shooters not shoot but just stand there searching for that prettly little dot.

[CC Italian]

Well here is my 2 cents. Many on here will have more experience with lasers. One of my revolvers S&W bodyguard comes with a built in laser. It is good for quick target accusation and paper plate size grouping. I don't think it is any more or less accurate with the laser but I can just get it back on target quicker. That also being said I could care less if I had a plate size or fist size grouping. My snub is close range backup and more then likely if ever used it will be within 20 feet.

Many shootings usually happen suddenly and at close range. This is why many officers and home owners who are interviewed after a shooting say they used the point shoot method after the first round. I don't rely on that laser on my smith and I don't have lasers on any of my other handguns. Practice with sights and laser, you never know when the laser might malfunction etc. If you ever use your handgun in self defense it will happen very fast! Which ever method allows you to put 2-3 shots center mass within a small paper plate size is the best method IMO.

Others who are CHL instructors and have tactical experience will chime in soon but I think the majority do not have lasers if that means anything. Also, when I am at home I have a handgun close by but if the situation permits I am running toward my shotgun or rifle. All homes should have a 12-20 gauge loaded with 000-#4 buck on hand.

[porterdriver]

OK, I've been schooled. Honestly, I do appreciate the advice/counsel of the group. I was already starting to suspect what you all have said.

I'm just not happy having spent that much money and not been satisfied with the reality. As a Junior Member of the short gun club, I find it hard to separate fact from hype when it comes to goodies.

I have a HI-VIZ green dot front sight on my SW-22a and find that I can get on-target much faster than I can with the stock sights of my XDM or with the CT. I plan on removing the CT and replacing the front sight with a HI-VIZ green dot. Is there any particular reason/advantage for doing the rears sights as well?

porterdriver

[MoJo]

No dots or fiber optic on the rear sights of all but one of my carry guns. The one exception is the set of TFO sights on my XD and it gets carried very little. I am faster in acquiring my sights with a Green Fiber Optic front sight and plain black rear sight. My old eyes and mind doesn't have to sort out all those spots. If you can keep all your shots on a paper plate or sheet of typing paper when shooting at speed you will be well ahead of most folks that carry a concealed handgun.

[stoneg1]

I will not try to convince anyone about the advantages of a laser on a handgun. I will just express the reasons I added them to two of my carry weapons (Colt Combat Commander .45 & Glock 22 .40 cal and soon my Ruger LC9). As anyone who has been in a close quarter fire fight will tell you, you will have tunnel vision, your hearing will decrease and your fine muscle coordination will head south. Your eyes will be focused on the bad guy – most likely not on your sights. Since the red/green dot will be located on the target you will know when your gun is aligned on center mass. If you fire, the laser will allow you to re-acquire the target faster if a follow-up shot is needed. Also, you cannot be assured you will be standing upright in a perfect shooters stance when the stuff hits the fan. You might be lying on your back, on your side or one of many other positions. With iron sights can you be sure of your sight alignment in any one of those positions? If you are in your home and are standing behind the door frame (concealment) with just your gun hand and enough of your head to allow one eye to see the target with the laser dot on center mass, you will not be exposing a large portion of your body for the bad guy to shoot at if you are using a regular shooting stance with arm extended with head and eye aligned over your sights. This also applies to cover – brick wall, dumpster, car body – if any of these are available. And history shows that most self-defense shootings occur in low light or during darkness. My lasers did not improve my accuracy that much when shooting at the range but they can reveal any bad habits a shooter might have. Jerking the trigger, limp wristing, too much of the trigger finger on the trigger, etc. There have been a few reports of when the bad guy saw the laser dot dancing on his chest, he thought he heard his mama calling him and he had to go home. Just a few reasons why I added them to my handguns. And as I told a friend when he said the laser cost about half of what he paid for this gun, I suggested to him that he wasn’t investing in his gun – he was investing in his life. He bought the laser. Semper Fi

[A-R]

Mojo made some of my points for me. Sights are a very personal decision. One of those try-a-bunch-til-you-find-what-you-love-things.

I too shoot best with a bright easy-to-find front sight and plain rear, but my worrisome nature wonders if I'll be able to find that rear sight channel quickly enough in low light, so my solution that works well for me is different colored front and rear sight dots. I have TruGlo TFOs on both of my Smith & Wesson M&Ps and each set is green front with yellow rear. The yellow is much dimmer than the green (this has something to do with the inherent tendencies of the tritium itself - which is "brightest" with green, not so much with yellow and/or orange).

But my favorite sights I've tried (on a buddy's gun, don't own any yet) are Dawson Precision "charger" rear sights. http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductD ... 1276004976" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These have much smaller dots in rear than front, thus offering the differentiation I prefer between front and rear even though they're all green dots. He offers them in tritium or fiber optic, and sells the rears separately so I'm assuming they could be combined with another brand of front sight (just be sure to read and follow his detailed guidelines on how to choose the right sight height for your application http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductD ... 1276004976" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

In a perfect world, TruGlo would sell their TFO as a front sight only option, and I'd pair that with Dawson charger rear sights on all my guns.

I'd also recommend you compare Dawson's front fiber optic sights to Hi-Viz as I think you'll find his quality better and be pleased with his products (have a set of his fiber sights on my 1911 and love 'em)

[The Annoyed Man]

Every time I try to shoot with a laser, I "chase the dot." Like others, I find it so distracting that I don't use them. The only gun we have with a laser is my wife's 642CT. I suppose that they might be fairly useful when shooting from unorthodox positions.....like from the ground on your back, shooting up at an assailant, or shooting on the run.....but I think it is almost useless to practice with them.

As for using a laser to see what you're doing wrong with the trigger, that is just as easy to diagnose by other means without the addition of the dancing dot.

I think I would rather have a good tactical light rather than a laser.

[stoneg1]

While I was teaching my daughter how to shoot a Glock 33 with a CT Laser I sold her, I noticed she was trying to “hold” the laser dot on the target. After she shot 3-4 mags to let her get familiar with the gun, I suggested she not try to "hold" the dot on the target. I told her to squeeze the trigger when the dot came on target. She started grouping her shots inside the bull’s-eye and her forearm on her shooting arm did not quiver trying to hold the dot still. I also will be adding a laser on the Ruger LCP that I’m giving my Granddaughter. She is a very good shot with all of my handguns but I think the laser would be a good addition to the gun. She has to walk across the parking lot at night after her classes at TCC. I have taught her all the awareness techniques a young woman (or any woman for that matter) needs to know and I want to place most of the odds in her favor in case she has to defend herself. Using a laser is like any other method of shooting – practice, practice, practice. Semper Fi

[The Annoyed Man]

While I was teaching my daughter how to shoot a Glock 33 with a CT Laser I sold her, I noticed she was trying to “hold” the laser dot on the target. After she shot 3-4 mags to let her get familiar with the gun, I suggested she not try to "hold" the dot on the target. I told her to squeeze the trigger when the dot came on target. She started grouping her shots inside the bull’s-eye and her forearm on her shooting arm did not quiver trying to hold the dot still. I also will be adding a laser on the Ruger LCP that I’m giving my Granddaughter. She is a very good shot with all of my handguns but I think the laser would be a good addition to the gun. She has to walk across the parking lot at night after her classes at TCC. I have taught her all the awareness techniques a young woman (or any woman for that matter) needs to know and I want to place most of the odds in her favor in case she has to defend herself. Using a laser is like any other method of shooting – practice, practice, practice. Semper Fi

Has she been carrying in the classroom?

[punkndisorderly]

I've got a light /laser combo on my HD gun. I do about 90% of my training without. I shoot better without, but I like the option should I need it. I have it adjusted to be right on top of where my front sight is at about 21 feet. It helps verify my sights are lined up. Since it moves with the sights, it doesn't distract me as much.

One cool thing to do is adjust it right below where you can see it and have a buddy critique your shots. They'll be able to see every mistake you make. Jerking the trigger, anticipating the shot, etc.

Lasers have a place, but are just one more tool in the toolbox.