open carry

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74novaman
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Re: open carry

#136

Post by 74novaman »

denwego wrote:That reminds me of when I lived in Virginia. I would openly carry to most places, and if I forgot where I had gone while running errands, I could look for the gunbuster signs that sprang up like magic minutes after I had been thrown out in handcuffs. Oh, wait, that never happened.

Houston is the biggest city in Texas and the city with the greatest potential for a §30.06 posting out of sheer volume of locations, and in 1.5 years I have never seen a valid sign. Everyone in the state with a brain already knows people can carry handguns in Texas, and if they wanted to keep CHLers out, nothing has ever stopped them from posting a sign. Saying that they're going to crop up everywhere overnight is like when people said there would be "blood in the streets" in 1995.

Also, when I was in Virginia, aside from gun-rights gatherings or shooting ranges, I never saw another person OCing. It wasn't common. But it was legal. Making it legal in Texas is still a net gain towards more freedom.
Charles Cotton has addressed this very issue. When CHL was passed in 95, gun buster signs popped up everywhere, prompting the creation of the big ugly sign in 1997. That is not talking about Virginia, but what happened in Texas with the CHL law.

Turning on my sarcasm mode now: But yes, we should absolutely base what we do here in Texas off of your experiences in Virginia, and not what actually occurred IN TEXAS.

edited to add: The only reason you don't see valid signs popping up is sheeple think a gunbusters is good enough, and since they never see a CONCEALED weapon, are never any the wiser. But I'm sure that'll work out with OC too.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: open carry

#137

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Something about this argument that very few people will do it so let's risk everything for it, seems like it is not very well thought out. There is one issue that is brought up each and every time and the OC crowd refuses to acknowledge the issue and address it. Slapping the issue off as if it is not a real concern is not the same as addressing the issue. If OC leaders cannot manage to sell CHL holders on OC, there is no way they are going to sell the other 98% of the population. Yep... OC is not going to happen in Texas.

Saying you want OC to protect you in case you accidentally display your firearm is like a person saying public intoxication should be legal in case they accidentally get drunk. Actually, it is even sillier than that, since accidental display is not illegal. One person out of several hundred thousand does not a precedent make. Your odds of dying in a traffic accident are far higher.
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redlin67
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Re: open carry

#138

Post by redlin67 »

It seems that a lot have the fear of "signs" that may appear because of open carry. When will you not be afraid? 2 years, 4 years, ever? :rules:
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Re: open carry

#139

Post by Liko81 »

Something about this argument that very few people will do it so let's risk everything for it, seems like it is not very well thought out. There is one issue that is brought up each and every time and the OC crowd refuses to acknowledge the issue and address it. Slapping the issue off as if it is not a real concern is not the same as addressing the issue. If OC leaders cannot manage to sell CHL holders on OC, there is no way they are going to sell the other 98% of the population. Yep... OC is not going to happen in Texas.
OK, I'll address it. The petition for open carry of handguns in Texas, opened to drum up support for a bill for the 2009 session, now has 70,000 signatures. That is roughly one-sixth the number of CHL holders as of the most recent numbers I can find (402,000 in 2009), who in turn represent about 2% of the total Texas population. So, overall, the number of people who both knew about the petition and cared enough to sign it represents about three tenths of a percent of the population of Texas.

That may not sound like much of a "fan base" for open carry, I grant. However, how many people in Texas, say, have a PhD? If it follows the national average, about one half of one percent. What say we enact legislation prohibiting the open display of intelligence by the owner of an advanced degree? This is post-9/11 after all; wouldn't want any of those "fringe" nuclear physicists or inorganic chemists getting any bright ideas. Or Chas, how about your profession? There are about 93,000 members of the Texas Bar; the difference between the number of petition signers and the number of lawyers, as a percentage of total population, is a rounding error. What if the majority got tired of all the cheesy personal injury, SS advocacy and bad drug ads and enacted legislation banning legal ads from all media, to keep all that unpleasant business out of sight?

"Minority rights"; compared to the full population of the State of Texas, the 400k people who have a CHL, the population of Lubbock, TX while Tech's in session, are a distant minority. Yet you assert your "right" to carry concealed. What you really have is State permission to exercise a fundamental tenet of your Constitutional right; the right to "bear" (equivalently defined as to carry and make use of) arms. Texans as a State got this permission by suffering the horror of the Luby's massacre, and the resulting concerted effort of a very small minority to convince the majority that concealed carry's benefits outweighed its risks. Individually, you got that permission by proving to the State that you could safely handle a firearm in a highly-controlled situation, and that you have attended a State-sponsored education course on conflict resolution and State firearms law. Oh yeah, and you paid $140 for the first 4 years, $70 for every 4 years thereafter to gain and retain this permission to exercise your right. If the State required continuing education and a $70 fee in order to vote, or to be a journalist, or to argue your legal case before a jury, you'd be screaming to anyone who'll listen about infringement of rights. Yet because it's guns, you say pay the money, hide your gun and be thankful. In Texas, no less; stereotypically regarded as the most gun-friendly state in the Union. The state that, historically, is REALLY the most unrestrictive is up in New England; Vermont, which is and always has been so unrestrictive about modes of carry that it doesn't even offer a concealed carry license for reciprocity with other states.
Saying you want OC to protect you in case you accidentally display your firearm is like a person saying public intoxication should be legal in case they accidentally get drunk. Actually, it is even sillier than that, since accidental display is not illegal. One person out of several hundred thousand does not a precedent make. Your odds of dying in a traffic accident are far higher.
It's one reason out of very many that OC proponents state. It is by no means the main reason. It is A reason that CHL holders SHOULD support OC; it benefits you as well, by allowing you the choice between OC or CC as you deem prudent. However, the main reasons I support OC in Texas are far broader:

* OC places fewer restrictions on clothing. A person CCing has to mix comfort with concealment; an IWB holster, with an undershirt inside to prevent chafing and an overshirt outside to conceal. Not conducive in the slightest to being outside for any length of time during a typical Texas summer.
* OC allows fewer restrictions on the type of weapon. Again, you have to mix comfort with concealment, and depending on your clothing and body type it can be hard to conceal the weapon you are most comfortable with. You are more often restricted to a smaller-framed, lighter pistol, that either kicks so hard at the range you avoid practicing with it, or has suboptimal terminal ballistics like a .32 or .380. Tell the truth; if you could properly conceal that full-size 1911, or Beretta, or whatever, you'd take it over a Bersa Thunder or Kel-Tec mousegun anyday.
* OC is, unequivocally, faster to draw from than CC. Period. CCers can argue all they want how pretty darn close they can get, but an unobstructed pistol at 3:00 OWB is always the benchmark. If it were faster to draw from concealment, you'd never see a gun because police officers would conceal all the time for performance reasons.
* OC is a visual deterrent. In addition to it being faster, police officers carry at 3:00 because that gun is, at all times, a signal that the officer can handle any situation. To those who state that OC would just get you shot first, I have two rebuttals: first, how was your daydream? When carrying, openly OR concealed, you should be in Col. Cooper's Condition Yellow at all times. A person who was shot before they had a chance to draw got blindsided. Second, you can only get shot when the bad guy has a gun. An assailant with a baseball bat or a knife is going to take one look at you and find someone else to work over. Moreover, bad guys know Sun Tzu just as well as we do; you never commit to a fair fight. Guns are force equalizers; if you as a bad guy know I have a gun, even if you have a gun, you're going to want to point it at someone else.

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Re: open carry

#140

Post by pcgizzmo »

Well Said. :clapping: :tiphat:
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74novaman
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Re: open carry

#141

Post by 74novaman »

redlin67 wrote:It seems that a lot have the fear of "signs" that may appear because of open carry. When will you not be afraid? 2 years, 4 years, ever? :rules:
If gunbusters applied to OC and 30.06 to concealed carry only, then I would stop worrying about signs at all.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: open carry

#142

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

74novaman wrote:
redlin67 wrote:It seems that a lot have the fear of "signs" that may appear because of open carry. When will you not be afraid? 2 years, 4 years, ever? :rules:
If gunbusters applied to OC and 30.06 to concealed carry only, then I would stop worrying about signs at all.
EXACTLY..... as would most of us. The voices of reason are repeatedly saying, NO connections between OC and CC. But that is not good enough for them. Maybe others are right and it was done from ignorance but I believe the connection is deliberate.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: open carry

#143

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Again... more responses based on emotional outbursts and veiled internet insults. Same old same old with the lips puckered in a different fashion. Still nothing to address the one and only concern. :tiphat:

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Re: open carry

#144

Post by zero4o3 »

03Lightningrocks wrote:
74novaman wrote:
redlin67 wrote:It seems that a lot have the fear of "signs" that may appear because of open carry. When will you not be afraid? 2 years, 4 years, ever? :rules:
If gunbusters applied to OC and 30.06 to concealed carry only, then I would stop worrying about signs at all.
EXACTLY..... as would most of us. The voices of reason are repeatedly saying, NO connections between OC and CC. But that is not good enough for them. Maybe others are right and it was done from ignorance but I believe the connection is deliberate.
I feel like my points were ignored because they couldnt be overcome

Edit to ad I was not refering to you more so agreeing with you and pointing it out again ;-)
pcgizzmo wrote:
zero4o3 wrote:
pcgizzmo wrote:I have yet to see anyone post what an open carry bill would look like that would make everyone happy.

I see it as a no win situation in that CHL's are going to continue to be concerned about postings that keep them out with Open Carry.

I don't want my current rights to change but I do want open carry. I can't think of a way to get that w/out possibly taking a chance on a few things changing. I haven't seen anyone post a good solution on how to change w/out causing some issues. So, I'm curious if those CHL'ers that say they are for Open Carry really are for it or are they just saying that because there for 2nd Amendment rights but would prefer not to rock the boat because we have it pretty good right now as is.
I think a good solution would be to make OC not require a licenses and let any form of gunbuster sign give notice not to carry. ;-)
That's what I'm saying. There is no good way to have OC and not at least have some possibility of changing the current CHL laws or at least the possibility that there would be less access to places CHL's can go now. So, my best guess is that some who say they are for full 2nd amendment rights even though deep down that may be half true secretly they don't want to change anything because that would mean changing our current CHL access and possibly more 30.06 signs going up and or having to do away with them all together and allowing any "not allowed sign" to take it's place.

I'm not sure you can make the OC omelet w/out breaking some eggs.
my suggestion is a perfectly good way, and if its not point out the flaws.
If the State required continuing education and a $70 fee in order to vote, or to be a journalist, or to argue your legal case before a jury, you'd be screaming to anyone who'll listen about infringement of rights. Yet because it's guns, you say pay the money, hide your gun and be thankful. In Texas, no less; stereotypically regarded as the most gun-friendly state in the Union. The state that, historically, is REALLY the most unrestrictive is up in New England; Vermont, which is and always has been so unrestrictive about modes of carry that it doesn't even offer a concealed carry license for reciprocity with other states.
And thank you sir, for making my point with this part of your post, your upset that we CHL holders dont fully support this CURRENT OC legislation, and in your argument you point out costs, but YOU who want to OC would pay that same 140 / 70 dollar fee to OC if it got passed would you not?

This is not to say that I dont want some form of OC, just that I dont want the current legilsation.

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Re: open carry

#145

Post by pcgizzmo »

zero4o3 wrote:
my suggestion is a perfectly good way, and if its not point out the flaws.

Your suggestion if I'm not mistaken was to let any sign be good enough. That means even the currently invalid signs would be enough to keep even CHL holders out. That's a huge flaw.
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Re: open carry

#146

Post by tacticool »

74novaman wrote:Turning on my sarcasm mode now: But yes, we should absolutely base what we do here in Texas off of your experiences in Virginia, and not what actually occurred IN TEXAS.
It makes as much sense as basing it on what happened in a previous century. :biggrinjester:
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Re: open carry

#147

Post by zero4o3 »

pcgizzmo wrote:
zero4o3 wrote:
my suggestion is a perfectly good way, and if its not point out the flaws.

Your suggestion if I'm not mistaken was to let any sign be good enough. That means even the currently invalid signs would be enough to keep even CHL holders out. That's a huge flaw.
my suggestion was to let OC be unlicesnsed and being so, wouldnt be attached to CHL, so they would have no curren exceptions for being given notice, a gun buster would be notice for OC but not CHL while it wouldnt leave OC in as good as a situation as CHL, it would get it out there and give you something to build off of, it would also help all the people that are interested in OC during out door activities :tiphat:
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Re: open carry

#148

Post by tacticool »

03Lightningrocks wrote:Again... more responses based on emotional outbursts and veiled internet insults. Same old same old with the lips puckered in a different fashion. Still nothing to address the one and only concern. :tiphat:
:iagree:

People keep ignoring "shall not be infringed" when the restrictions fit their biases.

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Re: open carry

#149

Post by steveincowtown »

There seems to be some flawed logic in this thread. Almost everyone agrees that OC is rarely practiced and rarely seen in states where it is legal, but then some contend that signs will go up everywhere because shopowners will panic at the first OC'er they see...which will be seldom or never? Doesn't add up in my book.
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74novaman
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Re: open carry

#150

Post by 74novaman »

steveincowtown wrote:There seems to be some flawed logic in this thread. Almost everyone agrees that OC is rarely practiced and rarely seen in states where it is legal, but then some contend that signs will go up everywhere because shopowners will panic at the first OC'er they see...which will be seldom or never? Doesn't add up in my book.
You could argue the same about why some are pushing so hard for it right now. We've already got campus carry and parking lot bills in this session, and the legislature is dealing with mobs of angry teachers and a budget crisis...this is now what, round 2 of trying to get campus carry passed? But by all means, lets use our political capital on something that "most people won't do". That makes perfect sense as well.

And you missed a point I made earlier. Even if not many people open carry, I can easily see local news doing segments on "Texas legislator wants people to be able to walk around in public with guns on their hips...find out how to keep Open Carry out of your business after the break"

If we don't have separate sign requirements for CC and OC, the mere fact that OC has passed will prompt people to post signs to prevent it, even if they never see someone doing it. Why did people put up gunbusters signs after 95? They certainly never saw anyone in their place of business with a gun, after all.

I'm all for pushing for open carry. With separate sign requirements, and after campus carry and parking lot bills are passed. If no ones going to do it anyway, why is it so important RIGHT NOW? As has been stated many many times, it took a long time for gun rights to get into as sad a state as they are in this country and this state. We're not going to get everything back at once. But if we work together on things piece by piece, we might have a little more success.

For the record, I'm not going to be calling reps and senators telling them to vote against the OC bill this session. I'm too busy calling people trying to get campus carry passed. I'm not against what ocdo wants to do, just their horrible timing and previous bad tactics (to be fair, haven't seen any bomb throwing this year about us sabotaging OC or being little bradyites.)
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