.22 cal LR not reliable for SD, is a .380?

[flechero]

Time for a physics review
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

"Although both mass and velocity contribute to the muzzle energy, the muzzle energy is proportional to the mass while proportional to the square of the velocity. The velocity of the bullet is a more important determinant of muzzle energy. For a constant velocity, if the mass is doubled, the energy is doubled; however, for a constant mass, if the velocity is doubled, the muzzle energy increases four times. In the SI system the above Ek will be in unit joule if the mass, m, is in kilogram, and the speed, v, is in metre per second."

This is why an AR-15 shooting a 55 grain bullet produces twice the energy as a 230 grain .45 bullet. (3000 fps vs. 800 fps)

I can't do the math so let me ask this... the AR only doubles the .45acp???? I would have thought it was more. The bullet is about 1/4 the mass but velocity is almost 4 times that of the 45acp and uses roughly 5 times the charge of powder.

What about instead of 230's @ 800- if I carry 185 gr JHP's moving at 1155fps, does that change in any meaningful way? (that's what mine chrono'd at)

[Abraham]

Rob72,

Thanks for your excellent post!

[bblhd672]

Regardless of the caliber, two to the chest, one to the head, repeat as necessary. All my SD pistols are 9mm (for now cause the .45 lust is creeping up).

For the discussion about velocity/mass/etc, the new polymer bullets that, according to the manufacturer, create huge wound tunnels due to the velocity of the bullet, may change the way we all think about caliber.

https://www.inceptorammo.com/inceptor-p ... d-defense/

Upon entering soft tissue, the specially designed grooves in the nose harness the soft tissue and constrict, pressurize and eject it at 1.5 to 2 times the directional speed of the bullet. This is the well-known Venturi Effect. As the bullet penetrates, it tumbles in a controlled, predictable fashion that delivers consistent terminal performance that equals or exceeds conventional hollow-point designs without over penetrating.

[rotor]

A 1911 with 8 rounds that misses 8 times is not as effective as a fully loaded Glock 17 that hits 1/2 of the time.

So regardless of the caliber debate, how do you figure the above? The guy with a 1911 misses all his shots but the guy w/ a glock hits at a 50% rate???????

Better to have more rounds available as in the heat of passion one is more likely to miss. So, size of the round is not as important as number of rounds. Let's really take it down, how about one of those 2 shot .45 pocket guns vs. a 17 round Glock 9mm? Your choice.

[flechero]

OK, a derringer 45 isn't a great comparison to a dbl stack 9, except in concealability!


It's been said already, if you shoot a 9 better, carry that. If you shoot a 45 better, carry that. I shoot the 45's I own better than the 9's I own. So when possible, I carry a 45.

If you really want to compare apples to apples:

small gun- shield 9 vs shield 45... difference is only 1 round and dimensions are extremely close.
mid size- G19 capacity 15+1 width 1.26" vs. XD45 Capacity 13+1 Width 1.22"

I don't doubt stress and do see value in more rounds (which is why I always have a spare mag or even 2) but don't dismiss a 45 just because it may hold a round or 2 less in a similar package.


My goal isn't to change anyone's mind, I appreciate an honest discussion in either direction.

[The Annoyed Man]

cmgee67,

Wow!

I thought I was grumpy...just please remember: No one is forced to read what others post.

To all: Thanks, I cheerfully thank you all for your responses.

Abraham,
Some may not have had their coffee. I do find it interesting and telling that so many new pistols in .380 have come out in recent years. Markets react to demands.

There is a strong demand for rap “music” in the entertainment industry too. Doesn’t mean it’s any damn good.

Although I have settled on carrying 9mm, I actually agree that .45 is probably more effective.....if you hit your target. I’m reasonably confident that I can hit a target most of the time with either caliber. And like many, I find the .45 reasonably easy to shoot......certainly no more difficult than shooting 9mm. The only reason I carry 9mm is because that’s what my wife carries. The main reason I carry Glocks is because that’s what my wife carries. I can adapt myself to just about anything. She either can’t or won’t be that adaptable; but it doesn’t matter which. I’ve never been able to make her do anything she didn’t want to do since the day I met her. It is important to me that she be able to handle my carry weapon if something should happen to me, even though she always carries one herself.

I have my personal range of calibers which I view to be “sufficient”. What does “sufficient” mean to me? It means that I have complete confidence that it will be enough caliber, if I do my part. Calibers less powerful than 9mm may be “sufficient” in other people’s hands, and those people may have complete confidence in them....and that is fine for them. But in a pinch, I’d rather have even a .25 than no gun at all - Jeff Cooper’s wisdom notwithstanding. I’d take a .22LR over a .25. I’d take a .32 over a .25. I’d take a .380 over either a .25 or a .32. I’d take a .38 +P over a .380, a .25, or a .32. Notice that I did not eliminate the .22LR? What that means is that I regard the .22LR as a legitimate self-defense caliber, even if it isn’t an immediate fight-stopper. I can carry 38 +P in my .357 magnum revolver, but I don’t, I carry .357. Why? Because in the unlikely event that I actually have to shoot it, I’m not going to give much of a hoot about recoil, but I WILL give a hoot about effectiveness - and a .357 magnum has a higher probability of being effective than a .38 +P.

And that is what this all boils down to for me. I don’t mock the less powerful calibers, but they’re not my primary choice for carry. If it were less socially awkward to openly carry a loaded long gun everywhere I went, I’d probably give less thought to what pistol caliber I carry.

[puma guy]

cmgee67,

Wow!

I thought I was grumpy...just please remember: No one is forced to read what others post.

To all: Thanks, I cheerfully thank you all for your responses.

Abraham,
Some may not have had their coffee. I do find it interesting and telling that so many new pistols in .380 have come out in recent years. Markets react to demands.

There is a strong demand for rap “music” in the entertainment industry too. Doesn’t mean it’s any damn good.

Although I have settled on carrying 9mm, I actually agree that .45 is probably more effective.....if you hit your target. I’m reasonably confident that I can hit a target most of the time with either caliber. And like many, I find the .45 reasonably easy to shoot......certainly no more difficult than shooting 9mm. The only reason I carry 9mm is because that’s what my wife carries. The main reason I carry Glocks is because that’s what my wife carries. I can adapt myself to just about anything. She either can’t or won’t be that adaptable; but it doesn’t matter which. I’ve never been able to make her do anything she didn’t want to do since the day I met her. It is important to me that she be able to handle my carry weapon if something should happen to me, even though she always carries one herself.

I have my personal range of calibers which I view to be “sufficient”. What does “sufficient” mean to me? It means that I have complete confidence that it will be enough caliber, if I do my part. Calibers less powerful than 9mm may be “sufficient” in other people’s hands, and those people may have complete confidence in them....and that is fine for them. But in a pinch, I’d rather have even a .25 than no gun at all - Jeff Cooper’s wisdom notwithstanding. I’d take a .22LR over a .25. I’d take a .32 over a .25. I’d take a .380 over either a .25 or a .32. I’d take a .38 +P over a .380, a .25, or a .32. Notice that I did not eliminate the .22LR? What that means is that I regard the .22LR as a legitimate self-defense caliber, even if it isn’t an immediate fight-stopper. I can carry 38 +P in my .357 magnum revolver, but I don’t, I carry .357. Why? Because in the unlikely event that I actually have to shoot it, I’m not going to give much of a hoot about recoil, but I WILL give a hoot about effectiveness - and a .357 magnum has a higher probability of being effective than a .38 +P.

And that is what this all boils down to for me. I don’t mock the less powerful calibers, but they’re not my primary choice for carry. If it were less socially awkward to openly carry a loaded long gun everywhere I went, I’d probably give less thought to what pistol caliber I carry.

I most often carry a Kahr PM40 or a Model 60 .38, but as mentioned sometimes a S&W .380 Bodyguard. To be clear I only mentioned the upswing in .380 model because enough people are making it a choice to make it profitable to develop and market new models; the Browning 1911-.380 as an example.

[cheezit]

I belive the up swing in the .380 market is from 2 factors.
1. improvement in bullet technology
2. Women that are entering the market who just do better with that round. My wife is a perfect example she loves her sig p238. She can load her mags, and rack the slide with out any issues. She can also hit a target. She doesn't do as well on the target with the sig 938.

And as Tam said, skip the .25 I can not think of a worse performing round. If you know of one please let us know.

[Grundy1133]

I carry a 40 caliber for no other reason than it's the first caliber i was introduced to. I've shot a 45 and a 9mm. even a 357 magnum and a 38 special. i cant speak for 10mm or .380 (altho 38 special is similar) but I like 40 best just because it was the first caliber i ever shot and I'm comfortable shooting it. I'm sure each caliber has their positives and their negatives. as for what the minimum caliber i'd use for SD, I'd say 9mm. Just because I feel like a 380 might not have enough stopping power. HOWEVER, for an elderly person or someone with arthritis who has a hard time racking a slide or handling the k ick of a 9mm i'd say 380 or 38 special. I wouldnt recommend ANYONE rely on a rimfile cartridge for SD because of the reason someone else stated. too unreliable. I've had lots of misfires with 22LR (relatively speaking). I'd stick with center fire cartridges.

[LDB415]

The only round I consider inadequate is the non-existent one I'd be willing to be shot with. The problem isn't that a .22 is inadequate, the problem is it takes significantly longer to reach adequacy after hitting the target. The larger the round the quicker adequacy is reached. That said, there's also the wise words "I'd rather hit 'em with a flyswatter than miss 'em with a cannon.".

[rotor]

OK, a derringer 45 isn't a great comparison to a dbl stack 9, except in concealability!


It's been said already, if you shoot a 9 better, carry that. If you shoot a 45 better, carry that. I shoot the 45's I own better than the 9's I own. So when possible, I carry a 45.

If you really want to compare apples to apples:

small gun- shield 9 vs shield 45... difference is only 1 round and dimensions are extremely close.
mid size- G19 capacity 15+1 width 1.26" vs. XD45 Capacity 13+1 Width 1.22"

I don't doubt stress and do see value in more rounds (which is why I always have a spare mag or even 2) but don't dismiss a 45 just because it may hold a round or 2 less in a similar package.


My goal isn't to change anyone's mind, I appreciate an honest discussion in either direction.

I very much agree that the .45 is a better round. I carry a Glock 21 open when hunting as a backup. I would consider a Shield 45 as well as a carry gun. I have several mouse guns (Colt Vest .25, Kel-tec p32), a S&W bodyguard 380, Glock 43, Ruger LCR 38 and Glock26, I also have several .357 Mag revolvers and an 8" S&W 629 .44 mag. I have quite a few calibers except .40 and 10 mm.

I never carry the .25. I sometimes carry the P32 (pocket), I frequently carry the Ruger LCR open with snake shot for my first round(for snakes), Most of the time I carry the .380 Bodyguard iwb, sometimes the Glock 43 open carry, Glock 26 almost never, Glock 21 open when hunting and I have a Ruger SR1911 full size that I love but Glock 21 has more capacity. I think the newer .380 ammo is good for SD. Everything is a compromise though and in an ideal world I want a Kel-Tec p32 size gun (it is a very nice gun too), with the killing power of a 45 and magazine of at least 17 rounds, all in a P32 size to easily fit in my pocket and did I say, weigh less than 14 oz fully loaded. Dream on.

What I do notice as I get lazy with age is that I am carrying the P32 more often as it is just so convenient and a spare mag is so easy and again, it is all in what's the risk. If I ever need to use the P32 it will be really close range. The darn thing though is very accurate and has never failed me. I use fmj ammo. I am not telling anyone else to use such a small caliber but it is a great backup gun and when nothing else will fit....

[RGVshooter]

Here we go again with the caliber debate....


Let me ask you guys a question.... For those who are licensed to carry, what is your main goal when it comes to self defense?

[MaduroBU]

I actually posted another thread on this exact topic in the reloading forum about the same time that this thread started. I'll shamelessly self promote with a link as it took quite a bit of time, money, and effort to put together, and I think that the results are interesting.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=93735

[flechero]

Here we go again with the caliber debate....


Let me ask you guys a question.... For those who are licensed to carry, what is your main goal when it comes to self defense?

I watched some of it... No doubt he has experience and no doubt his credentials are good... but none of that matters when your argument doesn't add up. I gave up watching when Mr. Werner presented as fact, pocket guns being more effective than service pistols in the hands of civilians. Just because a pocket pistol COULD stop an attack doesn't mean it will or that we should not carry anything larger than a .25acp. After that he says "may", "might" or "could" and "probably".

He further stated he could document far more failures in service pistols than in pocket guns. I would submit that the civilian world doesn't report failures to a statistic gathering body as leo and mil after shootings.

Further, I find it fascinating that the world is full of people with small guns and actual stories of limp wristing, fails to eject, feed etc. (both people I know and know of online) They are in much greater proportion to the experience & stories of service pistols failing... besides, the service pistols he speaks of are glock, m&P, XD and Beretta 92's... which are said to be the MOST reliable under any set of circumstances or operating conditions.





Apparently I was right 25 years ago!!!! my first kel-tec P3AT was the right choice! Much better than the STI gaurdian that I shoot better, faster and way more accurately... and the KT would have only jammed on the range, never in a gunfight - whereas the STI will probably fail in a fight since it runs like a champ on the range, in classes, and with factory and reloads to the tune of over 15K rounds. -sarcasm off- And God forbid one of them does fail in a fight, the larger gun is MUCH easier to do a failure drill or mag change with.

I won't change his mind and he won't change mine... and that's fine.