open carry

[steveincowtown]

So for the record what is the solution? Constitutional carry? How should it be brought forward? I've read in other open carry states that very few actually open carry. Why do we think Texas will be any different?

In all states, less than 2% of the population exercise free speech through protest. Less then 50% typically vote. Less than 1% will ever invoke their 5th amendment rights. Less than 5% of us will ever experience trial by jury. Just because a right is rarely exercised or even never exercised doesn't mean it isn't a right.

[Beiruty]

Charles, however, said 2 signs would not fly. I kindly ask why this compromise is not possible?

Good question. An AR-15 is not a handgun so a 30.06 sign does not apply to that either right now.

Let me add,

Since we do have OC for long guns already in TX. What is legally needed to notify someone that he can't just walk in at CVS with his AK on his shoulder?

[Keith B]

Charles, however, said 2 signs would not fly. I kindly ask why this compromise is not possible?

Good question. An AR-15 is not a handgun so a 30.06 sign does not apply to that either right now.

Let me add,

Since we do have OC for long guns already in TX. What is legally needed to notify someone that he can't just walk in at CVS with his AK on his shoulder?

Same thing. All they have to do is tell you to leave. If you don't, then it is criminal trespass I believe.

[pcgizzmo]

I don't see how we will ever have Open Carry in Texas if I read the concerns correctly here.

If you have Open Carry then anyone that carries into a store openly can be told to go away. If this happens enough times then a sign will get posted and if the store owner is concerned enough and does their research which they may after a few open carries they will also post a 30.06 sign.

If you do away w/30.06 then any type of no gun sign will do for open or concealed which is not good.

There is no way to take away an establishments rights to deny entry with a gun.

There doesn't seem for there to be any way to have open carry without affecting either our current concealed carry and or possibly making it harder to carry into private establishments.

So, do concealed carry supporters REALLY want open carry at all because of the possible ramifications?

[03Lightningrocks]

What most people are missing here is the fact that the minute you walk into a store that doesn't want open carry, any associate that sees you can ask you to leave, sign or not, and you must comply. If they get enough people trying to open carry and have to start telling them to leave they WILL search out methods to stop it. That will mean a valid 30.06 sign.

I get the point, but this hasn't been the case elsewhere. The one point I can see is many of those places (like VA) have had OC so long that no one notices anymore. On the other hand when AZ passed CC, there was not flurry of signs posted. We just have not seen great efforts to stop OC on by store owners, shopkeeps, etc. anywhere else in the US (can't count CA), so what makes everyone think that it will happen in Texas?

If that is the case. Why bother to tie it all in with present CHL laws? Write the bill in a way that allows merchants the ability to keep out OC with a simple gun buster sign. Based on OC proponents comments, it should be no problem. Very few merchants will bother to post a gun buster sign. I could be in support of an OC law with no connection to the CHL. I mean none... nada... zip! Never in any wording in the laws what so ever! No reference to CHL... NONE!!! Simple statement that if a merchant wants to keep out OC, they can do so by posting a simple gun buster sign. End of statement.

I don't believe that is what the writer of the present bill wants because the attempt was to draw on the strengths of the CHL laws. They know darned good and well the risk associated and want to tie in with CHL laws for numbers. According to the sales pitch, not many folks will OC anyway, so most folks won't even notice. If they believe not many folks will OC, then they must realize a merchant who says no to OC, won't experience many complaints of this action. Tie it in with CHL and suddenly you have more folks to complain. It is this very convoluted thinking that gives the rest of us cause for concern. Instead of giving authority to OC, it will suck the life out of our present right to carry concealed, if passed as written!

OC proponents are telling me they are willing to put my ability to carry in jeopardy when the write bills like that one. Thanks... but NO THANKS.

In my mind, they showed they believe there will be resistance. They proved this by trying to make it hard for a merchant to forbid it. Actions speak louder than words. if you believe there will be mass acceptance, prove it by writing a bill that says you believe this. I am presently allowed to carry concealed and defend myself. I am good with this. OC proponents are asking me to take it on faith that my ability to carry is not at risk while not writing a simple (NON-CONNECTED) bill that shows they believe this.

[VMI77]

To me, the logic of these remarks, particularly the last one, is inescapable. I'd rather not have to actually endure these consequences in order to convince those who believe otherwise.

Would you support a law making illegal to open carry rifles and shotguns in Texas? I guarantee people will notice those easier than a 1911.

I used to walk down the street with a gun over my shoulder back when I was in high school --to go hunting or shooting. On the one or two occasions I got stopped by law enforcement it was an amiable exchange centered on what kind of gun I had. We used to have guns in our cars at school, even examine a classmate's new deer rifle or shotgun in the parking lot from time to time. I had no concern that a neighbor or passerby was going to call the police because they saw someone with a gun, nor did I have any concern about how the police would react if they saw me. But even back then I didn't go to places like the grocery store with a rifle slung over my shoulder.

That's not the country we live in now. My son worked for a guy who had the police called on him because someone saw him, through the window, cleaning a gun at his kitchen table. If I walk down the street with a rifle slung over my should today I fully expect someone to call the police and report a man with a gun and I fully expect the police to at least chide me for using bad judgment. And if I saw someone walk into Walmart with a rifle I can assure you I'd keep my eye on him --as I think most of us would.

No, I don't want open carry of rifles and shotguns to be made illegal. But I suggest to you that if you walk into the local Burger King with an AK-47 over your shoulder you're going to be having an encounter with law enforcement. I've lived in this state for over 40 years, mostly in more rural areas, and traveled around it quite a bit, and in all that time I've never seen a member of the general public carrying a rifle or a shotgun around in any public business except a gun range or a gun store.

[VMI77]

I am presently allowed to carry concealed and defend myself. I am good with this. OC proponents are asking me to take it on faith that my right to carry is not at risk while not writing a simple (NON-CONNECTED) bill that shows they believe this.

Exactly.

[VMI77]

Charles, however, said 2 signs would not fly. I kindly ask why this compromise is not possible?

Good question. An AR-15 is not a handgun so a 30.06 sign does not apply to that either right now.

Let me add,

Since we do have OC for long guns already in TX. What is legally needed to notify someone that he can't just walk in at CVS with his AK on his shoulder?

It may be legal but if you try it you should expect to have an unpleasant encounter with law enforcement. I think there is zero chance of you walking into any public business like a CVS without the police being quickly summoned.

[Charles L. Cotton]

We just have not seen great efforts to stop OC on by store owners, shopkeeps, etc. anywhere else in the US (can't count CA), so what makes everyone think that it will happen in Texas?

It has already happened in Texas. "No gun" signs were an epidemic from 1995 until we changed the law in 1997 (9/1/97) and small, simple, generic "no gun" signs and decals no longer applied to CHL's. The "Big Ugly Sign" that TPC §30.06 requires is aesthetically unacceptable to most business owners, so they don't post the signs to prohibit guns people can't see. Open-carry changes the landscape dramatically and will force many businesses to post 30.06 signs to placate customers who complain about "those people" with guns.

Trying to rely upon the experience of other states while ignoring what actually happened in Texas is like saying there can't be any fire ants in Texas since there are none in Alaska.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

To me, the logic of these remarks, particularly the last one, is inescapable. I'd rather not have to actually endure these consequences in order to convince those who believe otherwise.

Would you support a law making illegal to open carry rifles and shotguns in Texas? I guarantee people will notice those easier than a 1911.

People don't open-carry long guns in stores, banks, restaurants, etc. nor do they walk down the street with an AR slung over their shoulder. There's no comparison between open-carry of handguns throughout one's daily activities and current practice with long guns.

Chas.

[flintknapper]

We just have not seen great efforts to stop OC on by store owners, shopkeeps, etc. anywhere else in the US (can't count CA), so what makes everyone think that it will happen in Texas?

It has already happened in Texas. "No gun" signs were an epidemic from 1995 until we changed the law in 1997 (9/1/97) and small, simple, generic "no gun" signs and decals no longer applied to CHL's. The "Big Ugly Sign" that TPC §30.06 requires is aesthetically unacceptable to most business owners, so they don't post the signs to prohibit guns people can't see. Open-carry changes the landscape dramatically and will force many businesses to post 30.06 signs to placate customers who complain about "those people" with guns.

Trying to rely upon the experience of other states while ignoring what actually happened in Texas is like saying there can't be any fire ants in Texas since there are none in Alaska.

Chas.

Texas history if full of events that never happened again. What happened in '95 is well in the past. Society is ever evolving, acceptance (or not) of any given subject is fluid. Lets be fair.

I do not believe the public will have fainting spells over OC should ever become law.

[03Lightningrocks]

snip.....
I do not believe the public will have fainting spells over OC should ever become law.

You would genuinly hate the City I live in. While politics here are typically conservative and most believe in the right to own guns. Many here see open carry as a sign of the wild west and many here have concerns about the safety of their children that are completely unfounded. Unfortunately, that is what we are dealing with here. I can't count how many folks I have heard tell me that they have no problem with people owning guns but have a serious issue with the "average Joe" walking around in public with one. These are common feelings held in "The Big Cities" all across Texas. I am not going to defend the ignorance, but I am also not going to tell them to "suck it up and live with it" because they won't!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Charles, however, said 2 signs would not fly. I kindly ask why this compromise is not possible?

The legislature would never pass a bill that established two different signs to bar both open-carry and concealed-carry. It would be too much of a burden on business owners. HB2756 should have left TPC §30.06 alone so that open-carry would have fallen under TPC §30.05 meaning any generic "no guns" sign would have been sufficient notice to bar open-carry. The pre-1997 "no guns" decals that measured around 3"x3" would be fine and wouldn't require businesses to post two "Big Ugly Signs" if they want to keep out all guns.

If an amendment were offered to amend TPC §30.06 to cover both open and concealed carry, then it could be fought and, if necessary, kill your own bill to keep from damaging the rights of 461,000 CHL's.

Chas.

[Beiruty]

Best course, is to introduce a bill for OC that do protect the 30.06 and mandate a different sign for OC. This makes sense and should be acceptable for all parties. This way, Businesses that do not like OC could restrict OC but leave CC alone.

[Charles L. Cotton]

We just have not seen great efforts to stop OC on by store owners, shopkeeps, etc. anywhere else in the US (can't count CA), so what makes everyone think that it will happen in Texas?

It has already happened in Texas. "No gun" signs were an epidemic from 1995 until we changed the law in 1997 (9/1/97) and small, simple, generic "no gun" signs and decals no longer applied to CHL's. The "Big Ugly Sign" that TPC §30.06 requires is aesthetically unacceptable to most business owners, so they don't post the signs to prohibit guns people can't see. Open-carry changes the landscape dramatically and will force many businesses to post 30.06 signs to placate customers who complain about "those people" with guns.

Trying to rely upon the experience of other states while ignoring what actually happened in Texas is like saying there can't be any fire ants in Texas since there are none in Alaska.

Chas.

Texas history if full of events that never happened again. What happened in '95 is well in the past. Society is ever evolving, acceptance (or not) of any given subject is fluid. Lets be fair.

I do not believe the public will have fainting spells over OC should ever become law.

You're right, it may not happen again. But when some argue that it won't happen in Texas because it didn't happen in [name your state] it is far more speculative than worrying what did happen in Texas.

In 2009 when the OpenCarry.org billboard and radio ads were out, two different TV stations in Houston ran news spots on open-carry. Some of them did "man on the street" interviews and all but one or two people interviewed said they didn't like the idea of people openly carrying guns. Some stated that concealed carry was fine, but not open-carry. That's not a scientific study, but it is information.

My point is that open-carry supporters need to acknowledge the risk exists, then take steps to prevent it. This means education and promotion long before a legislative session, then drafting a very short and concise bill that protects TPC §30.06 and finding an "author" who will carry it and be willing to kill his own bill if anything is added that hurts current concealed-carry rights. It causes a rift when open-carry supporters dismiss such concerns as being afraid of the dark. I would welcome open-carry supporters who would say "you're right; it did happen in 1995 and it could happen again. What can we do to prevent a negative backlash by the business community?" Those are people I could work with on a number of issues.

Chas.