Carrying a Colt Defender ??

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G.C.Montgomery
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#61

Post by G.C.Montgomery »

rm9792 wrote:…I will concede that no instructor on the planet advises Con2 because they all teach as they have been taught and adhere to the established doctrine, same with LEO and other professionals. Even if one did think it was better he would never teach it as he would open himself up the ridicule and bashing I have. Generations have not tested Con2 IMO because they have all been taught 1 is the best and no one has told me why up to this point. I have only heard because Cooper says so and no statistical data to back up Con 2 being unsafe.
I thought I was done but this is yet another point that I can’t let go unanswered. As an instructor, I personally to take exception to the statement above because it's wrong and it’s the second time I am forced to question whether you are the one speaking from conjecture rather than experience. I'm sure there are other instructors who are just as insulted but aren't going to dignify it with a response.

Cooper’s “Modern Method� defies your statement that all instructors adhere to established doctrine. Cooper’s concepts and methods contradicted all established civilian, military and police doctrine back in the 1960’s. Cooper was dismissed as a maverick by many “authorities� of the day, including many NRA instructors. Times have changed and now Cooper’s methods are considered established doctrine in many circles. Still the evolution continues as the generation of instructors that succeeded Cooper either added material of their own to Cooper’s concepts or even abandoned some of Cooper’s methods all together.

Clint Smith and the United States Marine Corps added the color Black to Cooper’s Colors to indicate a mind actively engaged in combat where Cooper stopped at Red believing the extra step was unnecessary. Brian Hoffner added yet another color, Blue, to indicate a reassessment or “downloading� phase in which one is still highly alert after engaging the first threat but scanning for more. On the other hand, John Farnam, also a Cooper student, generally does not teach Cooper’s Colors. He may refer to them from time to time but the color codes are not discussed in lectures unless students bring them up. There are also the programs of Gabe Suarez, Paul Howe and Larry Vickers...All considered bleeding edge. These are just a few examples of instructors who don’t just teach what they’ve been taught but push the envelope and continually update their programs with new techniques and concepts.

The point lurking here is unless you have attended classes with these people, you can’t offer an evaluation of their programs. And yet you made the statement above. The only way you could actually make that statement as a fact rather than conjecture is if you’ve attended classes in these programs over the years. I have attended said classes and spend a good bit of time teaching them. I reject your assessment as false. So my question is, have you actually tried attending a class with these or any other instructors lately or is your statement just conjecture and emotion?
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.

G. C. Montgomery, Jr.

txinvestigator
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#62

Post by txinvestigator »

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

As an instructor, I still continue to learn from every school I have attended. Back in the old days, Texas DPS taught one-handed, target, single action revolver shooting. Not anymore, ya know why? Not because of Cooper or anyone else. It is because Troopers were getting killed.

People are teaching condition 1 because it works. I don't think the people I have studied with gave a tiny rats patoot about what others think. They are teaching what they have seen work in combat and kept people alive.

Again, if anyone here wants to carry a club that looks like a gun, knock yourself out. But please don't do others a dis-service by advocating it as a sound method for them.
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rm9792
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#63

Post by rm9792 »

I conceded to your point that you dont think an instructor would teach Con 2 is safe and now you say they might? I have not attended any such classes except in the military but agreed with you in point because i have no idea about what is taught. But I do read a lot, way more than average and have never seen any book or article recommend that mode. They never say why, just repeat the same old mantras. I am agreeing with you and you still take offense. I only, and always, speak from my own experience or research. I am very neutral on most subjects and let the facts tell the story. Con 1 may be the better mode but my experience, for me, tells me otherwise. But I am always open to new info and am not set on anything in particular with regards to carry. You, TXI, Stephen R, etc are all very informative and I have learned a lot from yall but I simply dont agree here. You wrote "Now, please show me one instructor who actually recommends and uses Condition 2. And if you’ve got one, please invite him to the next CHL Forum Day.
". The implication was no one taught it that way. If I was wrong in that implication I do apologize. :cheers2:

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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#64

Post by CompVest »

G.C.Montgomery wrote:I'm sure there are other instructors who are just as insulted but aren't going to dignify it with a response.
+1
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carlson1
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#65

Post by carlson1 »

Every class I have attended - there has always been someone that knows more than the instructor :banghead: I never could figure out why they did not have their OWN CLASS.
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rm9792
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#66

Post by rm9792 »

CompVest wrote:
G.C.Montgomery wrote:I'm sure there are other instructors who are just as insulted but aren't going to dignify it with a response.
+1
I didnt insult anyone. I have never insulted anyone on this board or their profession. Nothing to +1 about. If I implied an insult, please accept my apologies.

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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#67

Post by rm9792 »

carlson1 wrote:Every class I have attended - there has always been someone that knows more than the instructor :banghead: I never could figure out why they did not have their OWN CLASS.
Yes, and it tends to make the class very tedious. Whether I feel I know more or not I always sit quietly and do it the way I am being instructed. My CHL class had a lot of wasted time by the commando lawyer wannabes that kept piping in with their comments.

Broge5
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#68

Post by Broge5 »

Welcome Paul,

I carry a Colt New Agent, pretty much same as the defender. Very small, very light. Love it.

Knockdown Power? OK, maybe not, but I sure like the Bigger Holes it makes! :cheers2:

By the way, I learned it here - Condition 1 for me.

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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#69

Post by txinvestigator »

Broge5 wrote:Knockdown Power? OK, maybe not, but I sure like the Bigger Holes it makes! :cheers2:



Broge5
I call them "flying ashtrays". ;)
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#70

Post by KD5NRH »

txinvestigator wrote:There is no need to cock a modern double action revolver.
The Blackhawk is not a double action revolver, nor, aside from the transfer bar modification on the New Model, is it intended to be particularly modern.

Of course, Ruger also includes instructions for cocking and decocking in the Redhawk manual, though at 29 years old, maybe it doesn't qualify as "modern" enough, or maybe Ruger just doesn't know enough about revolvers to see how useless it is. Let's check with another, more appropriate source; the Smith and Wesson Safety and Instruction Manual - Revolvers - Modern Style; pages 22 and 23 are a detailed description of the decocking process for S&W's modern double action revolvers. Hmm...Taurus maybe? Nope, didn't even get to the manual; they brag about the "crisp single action trigger pull" right in the advertising for some of their DA revolvers - that's going to require cocking them. Dan Wesson's large frame revolver manual has the single-action firing and decocking instructions on page 4, Rossi's on page 5, even one of the finest "modern double action revolvers" ever made, the Colt Python, has detailed instructions for single action use and decocking on pages 25-27.

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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#71

Post by txinvestigator »

The manuals have to give instructions so people who end up cocking them with live rounds have a source of information for de-cocking them without shooting themselves.

I never found the need to cock a revolver, even when I carried one as a cop.
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#72

Post by G.C.Montgomery »

KD5NRH, TXI’s statement, “There is no need to cock a modern double action revolver,� is correct within the context of this discussion. You are correct in that should an operator choose to use such a revolver in single-action mode, then one would have to cock the hammer. If for no reasons other than product liability and knowing that some owners would make that choice, manufactures had to provide an information resource for “safe� de-cocking.

Now from the perspective of a defensive shooter, soldier or police officer, taking the time to cock the hammer is time you don’t have. As TXI pointed out in an earlier post, TXDPS and others stopped allowing/teaching people to cock modern DA revolvers in training and during qualification because it established a dangerous and time consuming habit that was getting officers killed on a street. Many departments went so far as to pay a premium for double-action only revolvers. The fact that S&W. Colt, Taurus and others still tout the single-action triggers on their modern DA revolvers is irrelevant within the context of TXI’s statement and the discussion of modern revolvers for defensive shooting.

Oh, and the Blackhawk revolver is not a modern design. The Blackhawk is not and has never been marketed to law enforcement, military or the public as a modern personal defense sidearm. Single-action revolvers like the Blackhawk are primarily marketed to collectors/enthusiasts, grown men who still like to play “Cowboys and Indians,� as well as hunters who believe the single-action frame is inherently stronger than that found in a double-action revolver for use with larger cartridges such as 454Casull.
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.

G. C. Montgomery, Jr.

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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#73

Post by LarryH »

G.C.Montgomery wrote:Oh, and the Blackhawk revolver is not a modern design. The Blackhawk is not and has never been marketed to law enforcement, military or the public as a modern personal defense sidearm. Single-action revolvers like the Blackhawk are primarily marketed to collectors/enthusiasts, grown men who still like to play “Cowboys and Indians,�
So that's what I am! I never knew! Well, guess I'll own up to "enthusiast", though.

A double-action revolver is on my wishlist, though. Saw a LNIB Security-Six (in stainless) at the Pasadena Gun Show yesterday. Unfortunately, I'd just written a check to replenish our supply of 9mm and .45, so didn't have enough in that account to cover it. Told the dealer that, if he still had it when my income tax refund arrived, I wanted it.

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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#74

Post by G.C.Montgomery »

LarryH wrote:
G.C.Montgomery wrote:Oh, and the Blackhawk revolver is not a modern design. The Blackhawk is not and has never been marketed to law enforcement, military or the public as a modern personal defense sidearm. Single-action revolvers like the Blackhawk are primarily marketed to collectors/enthusiasts, grown men who still like to play “Cowboys and Indians,�
So that's what I am! I never knew! Well, guess I'll own up to "enthusiast", though.

A double-action revolver is on my wishlist, though. Saw a LNIB Security-Six (in stainless) at the Pasadena Gun Show yesterday. Unfortunately, I'd just written a check to replenish our supply of 9mm and .45, so didn't have enough in that account to cover it. Told the dealer that, if he still had it when my income tax refund arrived, I wanted it.

Hey man, I call it as I see it. There's nothing wrong with SAS/Cowboy Action in my book. If you like it, I love it. But I'm not making up a name for myself, like Quickdraw McGraw, and dressing up in the latest, 1880's fashions to go shoot. I don't do "tacticool Gucci" when I go to an IDPA or USPSA match either. Any match I can shoot in jeans/shorts and a t-shirt is too much of a hassle for me. I make an exception for 3-gun because I've only got so much room on my belt for guns and magazines.
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.

G. C. Montgomery, Jr.

KD5NRH
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Re: Carrying a Colt Defender ??

#75

Post by KD5NRH »

rm9792 wrote:How could you possibly pul the trigger while thumbing the hammer? Grip safety.
On my 1954 GM1911, the stock hammer spur will depress the grip safety if the hammer is pulled beyond full-cock.
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