Defensible Loads in Court Cases involving Self-Defense

[Crash]

I've read a lot lately about the use of hollow points and FMJs being hard to defend in court because the prosecuting attorney will describe HPs as "cop-killers" and FMJs as being designed for use by the military and shouldn't be used by civilians for self-defense.

So, what kind of load could be defended in court in case of a self-defense shooting? Target wadcutters? Semi-wadcutters? Or ??????

Any input based on actual experience with courtroom cases of this type would be highly appreciated.

Crash

[Boxerrider]

Military use of FMJ is to comply with the Geneva Convention requirement for non-expanding ammunition. It is known for deep penetration.
In self-defense I want a bullet that will hit the target, stop it, and not pass through with enough energy to do serious harm elsewhere. That's usually a JHP.
Law enforcement officers typically carry JHP ammo.

[rtschl]

I've read a lot lately about the use of hollow points and FMJs being hard to defend in court because the prosecuting attorney will describe HPs as "cop-killers" and FMJs as being designed for use by the military and shouldn't be used by civilians for self-defense.

So, what kind of load could be defended in court in case of a self-defense shooting? Target wadcutters? Semi-wadcutters? Or ??????

Any input based on actual experience with courtroom cases of this type would be highly appreciated.

Crash

I've heard the same by "experts" on social media, but have not seen anyone list an actual case. That's why I think a few things are important:

Are you in a location run by a liberal DA - they will find anything to charge you. Ask Daniel Penny (USMC veteran who was unarmed and stopped a violent subway attack).
Is the ammo common and in use as a defensive round?
Can you find out what LEO's around your area or in the state use?
FBI contracted service for their agents is: Hornady Critcal Duty 9mm+P 135gr FTX
US Air Marshalls use Jacketd HP
Texas DPS Troopers user Hornady Critical Duty 9mm Luger +P 135 gr
You need a good attorney who will hire an expert for you to debunk their claim.
NYC Police changed from FMJ to HP for several reasons:

Reduction in ricochet
Stopping power
Less over-penetration
Public Safety
Liability


I googled what ammo different LEOs use to get the info I posted above, and results came back based on contracts for ammo. But some of it may be dated. An attorney worth anything would call an expert or even cross examine every officer asking what ammo type they carry.

The article below mentions that, contrary to belief, the shooting of Amadou Diallo was not the catalyst to change from FMJ to HP, but was made months earlier. But that case brought to light the dangers of FMJ:

https://nypost.com/1999/02/15/nypd-new-ammo-old-news/

[rtschl]

Military use of FMJ is to comply with the Geneva Convention requirement for non-expanding ammunition. It is known for deep penetration.
In self-defense I want a bullet that will hit the target, stop it, and not pass through with enough energy to do serious harm elsewhere. That's usually a JHP.
Law enforcement officers typically carry JHP ammo.

Actually, it is to comply with the Hague Convention of 1899, which the US is NOT a signatory of and is not legally obligated to follow the rule. But the US voluntarily does.

[Boxerrider]

Military use of FMJ is to comply with the Geneva Convention requirement for non-expanding ammunition. It is known for deep penetration.
In self-defense I want a bullet that will hit the target, stop it, and not pass through with enough energy to do serious harm elsewhere. That's usually a JHP.
Law enforcement officers typically carry JHP ammo.

Actually, it is to comply with the Hague Convention of 1899, which the US is NOT a signatory of and is not legally obligated to follow the rule. But the US voluntarily does.

Thank you for the correction. I thought it was one international agreement or another.

I agree with you on the "internet experts" too. There is a lot of evidence supporting the use of JHP ammo for defensive use.

[Crash]

I've read a lot lately about the use of hollow points and FMJs being hard to defend in court because the prosecuting attorney will describe HPs as "cop-killers" and FMJs as being designed for use by the military and shouldn't be used by civilians for self-defense.

So, what kind of load could be defended in court in case of a self-defense shooting? Target wadcutters? Semi-wadcutters? Or ??????

Any input based on actual experience with courtroom cases of this type would be highly appreciated.

Crash

I've heard the same by "experts" on social media, but have not seen anyone list an actual case. That's why I think a few things are important:

Are you in a location run by a liberal DA - they will find anything to charge you. Ask Daniel Penny (USMC veteran who was unarmed and stopped a violent subway attack).
Is the ammo common and in use as a defensive round?
Can you find out what LEO's around your area or in the state use?
FBI contracted service for their agents is: Hornady Critcal Duty 9mm+P 135gr FTX
US Air Marshalls use Jacketd HP
Texas DPS Troopers user Hornady Critical Duty 9mm Luger +P 135 gr
You need a good attorney who will hire an expert for you to debunk their claim.
NYC Police changed from FMJ to HP for several reasons:

Reduction in ricochet
Stopping power
Less over-penetration
Public Safety
Liability

acc
I googled what ammo different LEOs use to get the info I posted above, and results came back based on contracts for ammo. But some of it may be dated. An attorney worth anything would call an expert or even cross examine every officer asking what ammo type they carry.

The article below mentions that, contrary to belief, the shooting of Amadou Diallo was not the catalyst to change from FMJ to HP, but was made months earlier. But that case brought to light the dangers of FMJ:

https://nypost.com/1999/02/15/nypd-new-ammo-old-news/

rtschl,

Should have explained more fully. In addition to JHPs being described as "cop-killers" by some prosecutors, they have also accused the defendant of being a "cop wanna-be" when he said that he used JHPs because the cops do. I know that our local LEOs use JHPs. And maybe I'm just being a bit paranoid. I live in an area that is very conservative, both politically and socially, and it's probably likely that a jury would find you innocent as long as the shooting was justified, regardless of what kind of ammo you used.

Thanks for your input.

Crash

[Crash]

Military use of FMJ is to comply with the Geneva Convention requirement for non-expanding ammunition. It is known for deep penetration.
In self-defense I want a bullet that will hit the target, stop it, and not pass through with enough energy to do serious harm elsewhere. That's usually a JHP.
Law enforcement officers typically carry JHP ammo.

Actually, it is to comply with the Hague Convention of 1899, which the US is NOT a signatory of and is not legally obligated to follow the rule. But the US voluntarily does.

Thank you for the correction. I thought it was one international agreement or another.

I agree with you on the "internet experts" too. There is a lot of evidence supporting the use of JHP ammo for defensive use.

Boxerrider,

I've also read that some prosecutors will accuse the defendant of being a "cop wanna-be" if he says that used JHPs because LEOs use them. However, maybe I'm just a little paranoid because I spend too much time on the internet. And, to be honest, I live in an area that is very conservative, both politically and socially, and I think that if the shooting is justified, the jury would find you innocent, regardless of what kind of ammo you used.

Thanks for your input,

Crash

[Paladin]

Anything can potentially be used against you. Using FMJ or JHP. Using a rock or your bare hands. Case history shows its much tougher to show self defense with a knife than a firearm. If you grab an attackers knife during a struggle and stab them its much worse than grabbing an attackers gun and shooting them. Doesn't have to make sense.

Massad Ayoob has had a very long career dealing with self defense cases all over the country and indicates you should use JHP. And respond to why you used JHP is that you are not trying to be a cop, but JHP's are what police have found to work best for self-defense so that is what you are using.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[rtschl]

Anything can potentially be used against you. Using FMJ or JHP. Using a rock or your bare hands. Case history shows its much tougher to show self defense with a knife than a firearm. If you grab an attackers knife during a struggle and stab them its much worse than grabbing an attackers gun and shooting them. Doesn't have to make sense.

Massad Ayoob has had a very long career dealing with self defense cases all over the country and indicates you should use JHP. And respond to why you used JHP is that you are not trying to be a cop, but JHP's are what police have found to work best for self-defense so that is what you are using.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Massad Ayoob is an expert and his opinion is a good one to trust and refer to. Excellent point about why someone chooses ammo. Just as we would never state nor intend to shoot someone to kill them, we only shoot to stop the threat. With respect to ammo type, you want to stop the threat with the least risk of over penetration and risk to innocent bystanders. A round that expands exerts more stopping power and least likely to over penetrate or ricochet.

One other thing, a major principle in law is the reasonable person standard. But sadly most leftist don't have reasonable standards or common sense especially when it comes to the the right to keep and bear arms and self defense. I would assume that the standard of common use that the US Supreme Court applied in Bruen, might or should apply with ammunition.