Light triggers on carry guns, why not?

[Bunkins]

I'm having a hard time figuring this out.. I've seen in several threads on this board and several others that you should leave the trigger as it is from the factory if you carry the gun? Why is that??

I shoot much better with a light trigger, I've shot guns with light triggers since I was little bitty, if it's over 3 lbs pull I can not shoot accurately.. If I shot hundreds after hundreds of rounds though a gun with a heavy trigger, yeah I'll get used to it, but why? If I can shoot more accurately with a light trigger, why not put a light trigger in my carry gun? I'm not talking 2 1/2 LBS here, I'm talking 3 1/2. My Kimber Ultra Carry has a 4 LBS pull, and I cant stand it. This gun comes with a match grade trigger from the factory, and yeah it's a ton better than most 1911 triggers I've felt, but it still feels very unrefined to me. After a few rounds I get used to it, but the first few shots I can barely hit paper. If I have to use it in a self defense situation I want the first shot to count, I shouldnt have to think that after 2 or 3 rounds I'll finally put the bullet where I want it, it should be the first shot and every shot after that. My finger NEVER goes on the trigger until my target is acquired and I'm ready to shoot. If I have to pull my gun in a self defense situation, it's going to be fired. So it's not a issue of holding someone at gun point with my finger on the trigger, because if my finger is there, the trigger is going to get pulled, why would less pull be a bad thing?

You'll often hear the same thing about hunting rifles, and I've never been able to figure that one out either.. I've got hunting rifles with 2 1/2 LBS of pull, none of them have ever gone off if I didnt pull the trigger, so I know thats not an issue. When I target shoot with these guns I know where they shoot on paper, why on earth would I want to mess up my accuracy with a heavy trigger pull when the situation matters? My .41 S&W was a service gun, was used in law enforcement, it has a 3 LBS trigger, with less safety features than a 1911 does.

With the Kimber, in the holster it effectively has 4 safety's. The first is the trigger itself, second the grip safety, 3rd is the thumb safety, and 4th is that my holster restraint will only latch if the hammer is back, therefore it will stop the hammer from falling and hitting the FP.. So the gun going off on it's own, there is no chance for that to happen.. Can someone enlighten me on the subject, because I dont understand it... Searching on the subject, all you see are comments that a light trigger should never be used in a carry gun, or a hunting gun, none of which explain why.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

This is a good question. I hope you get some info as to why. I too am interseted in knowing this.

[kalipsocs]

Plaxico Burress....

[seamusTX]

Police officers who used single-action pistols or Glocks with light trigger pulls were sometimes sued successfully because the pistol was "dangerous" (as if there were a safe pistol other than a water pistol). This was especially the case with custom modifications. These incidents gave rise to the phrase "New York trigger" for a heavy trigger pull.

See http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new ... k_trigger/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In my opinion, and I repeat that this is strictly my personal opinion as someone who is not a legal or firearms expert, trigger pull would not be an issue for a non-LEO in Texas.

You were either justified in using deadly force or not. If you were justified, you could use anything from a stock handgun to a grenade launcher (assuming you had the paperwork for it).

Light triggers do make it easier to shoot more accurately, and I think this is a strong argument in their favor.

You just need to develop muscle memory to keep your booger hook out of the trigger guard until the times come for a justified action.

As usual, IANAL, etc.

- Jim

[Plato]

M.Ayoob is probably the fountainhead of this line of reasoning. He sights various court cases where modifications to the handgun had a negative impact on the outcome of the case. He just recommends not giving the opposition's attorney any issues to raise -so just carry stock pistols/revolvers. I believe he has even recommended that revolver guys carry a wheel gun that only fires DA

Often times we Glock shooters get scolded for slipping the factory 3.5lb connector in our carry Glocks, but many of us just do better with that small change. I have the normal tendency to push left and low with the standard factory trigger, but much less so with the 3.5lb connector (which doesn't actually make the trigger pull 3.5lbs, more like 4.5lbs). So all you 1911 guys who have the factory trigger tuned up to your liking are kinda in the same catagory, and I bet as a percentage the folks totin' 1911s are much more likely to modify their trigger than anyone else. Basically we're all just doing what we think best and praying for a good outcome. If you can't hit with a gun then you gotta either change something about the gun or give up and leave it home. The old saying of "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6" comes to mind.

However, I will admit that I have under the stress of an IDPA match touched off a round before I actually intended for it to happen. Never in an unsafe manner mind you as the muzzle was pointed at the target, but a little stress from match shooting can easily overcome the resistance of the trigger and when you lighten it that seems more likely to happen. So there is some logic to avoiding a light trigger for a carry gun. Life and Death stress while shooting is something I've never experienced, but its obviously gonna be a bagillion times worse than a little ole' IDPA match.

[HankB]

I remember reading one case (Maybe it was Ayoob, but I don't know for sure) where the prosecution argued that the shooting was accidental, due to a hair trigger.

Mind you, the shooter SAID he deliberately shot the bad guy; he INSISTED on it, as it was a justifiable defensive gun use. But the prosecutor tried mightily to convince the jury that the shooting was accidental and unintentional. IANAL, but as I recall the reasoning was something along the lines of "Well, if he was defending himself, we won't get a conviction, but if it was an accident, the jury will find he was negligent."

IMHO, if the shooting is a good shoot, justified under TX law, trigger pull, handloads, gun modifications, etc., are all pretty much irrelevant.

[srothstein]

The reason police use a heavier trigger is to avoid accidental shootings during high stress incidents. The training for police with heavy triggers started during the 70's when they switched to always shooting their revolvers in double action mode instead of single action. When the switch to automatics began, the problem of changing between first and second shot was recognized (first shot double action, second shot single) and police tsrated asking for a gun that fired the same way every time. Glocks met this request by their original design and had a very effective marketing campaign in law enforcement. NYPD ordered a series of Glocks and they came with the factory stock triggers of around 5 pounds IIRC. After a couple accidental shootings, NYPD asked for a heavier trigger pull and Glock came out with the 8 pound trigger mechanism. This was originally called a New York trigger because it was a request from NYPD. There were some requests for even a heavier trigger pull, one more in line with the double action revolver pull. Glock responded with a 12 pound trigger, called the New York 2 trigger (renaming the 8 pounder to New York 1). Most Glocks now come with a 5.5 pound factory trigger and the have a lighter one available (3.5 pound I think). Glock recommends the lighter trigger be restricted to competition use only.

So, for factory guns, this is where the heavy trigger pull comes from. Between cops being conservative and not wanting to train properly (either for the new trigger or to keep their fingers out of the trigger guard), and cities and companies being afraid of liability, many guns get sold with heavier triggers than needed.

Ayoob has a very valid point and it is also liability related. When you modify a gun, you really give the DA or plaintiff's attorney fodder for making you look like a trigger happy nut looking for an excuse to shoot. When I last looked at Ayoob's stuff, all or almost all of the cases where there were lawsuits involved a marginal shooting AND a modified weapon. If you bought a gun with a two pound trigger, I don't think the same arguments could be used against you as modifying it. It is the modification that gives them the argument.

And the attitude about light triggers carries on from this. We all worry about being sued (well, a little bit anyway). None of us want to give the anti's any more fodder in a case we are involved in. I think we might be better off in Texas than most places and we are definitely better off than we were before. We have some pretty good protection from a suit if we have a good shooting. Most of our juries also seem to show more common sense than those in some states. But if you have a light trigger, it is a possibility that the plaintiff would argue that you did not really intend to shoot and it was an accident, thus negating the protection. I don't think it would work, but it would be more hassle and defense money spent. And if you do ever have an accidental shooting, the modification or choice of an extra light trigger would really work against you then.

But, if you keep your finger off the trigger until you are justified in shooting, you can have a 1 ounce trigger and not have a problem. And as an aside, I think I have posted before about my early training showing how even a double action revolver can be fired by accident when you get startled. The lighter the trigger, the easier it is if you have a finger on it.

[Excaliber]

The reason police use a heavier trigger is to avoid accidental shootings during high stress incidents. The training for police with heavy triggers started during the 70's when they switched to always shooting their revolvers in double action mode instead of single action. When the switch to automatics began, the problem of changing between first and second shot was recognized (first shot double action, second shot single) and police tsrated asking for a gun that fired the same way every time. Glocks met this request by their original design and had a very effective marketing campaign in law enforcement. NYPD ordered a series of Glocks and they came with the factory stock triggers of around 5 pounds IIRC. After a couple accidental shootings, NYPD asked for a heavier trigger pull and Glock came out with the 8 pound trigger mechanism. This was originally called a New York trigger because it was a request from NYPD. There were some requests for even a heavier trigger pull, one more in line with the double action revolver pull. Glock responded with a 12 pound trigger, called the New York 2 trigger (renaming the 8 pounder to New York 1). Most Glocks now come with a 5.5 pound factory trigger and the have a lighter one available (3.5 pound I think). Glock recommends the lighter trigger be restricted to competition use only.

So, for factory guns, this is where the heavy trigger pull comes from. Between cops being conservative and not wanting to train properly (either for the new trigger or to keep their fingers out of the trigger guard), and cities and companies being afraid of liability, many guns get sold with heavier triggers than needed.

Ayoob has a very valid point and it is also liability related. When you modify a gun, you really give the DA or plaintiff's attorney fodder for making you look like a trigger happy nut looking for an excuse to shoot. When I last looked at Ayoob's stuff, all or almost all of the cases where there were lawsuits involved a marginal shooting AND a modified weapon. If you bought a gun with a two pound trigger, I don't think the same arguments could be used against you as modifying it. It is the modification that gives them the argument.

And the attitude about light triggers carries on from this. We all worry about being sued (well, a little bit anyway). None of us want to give the anti's any more fodder in a case we are involved in. I think we might be better off in Texas than most places and we are definitely better off than we were before. We have some pretty good protection from a suit if we have a good shooting. Most of our juries also seem to show more common sense than those in some states. But if you have a light trigger, it is a possibility that the plaintiff would argue that you did not really intend to shoot and it was an accident, thus negating the protection. I don't think it would work, but it would be more hassle and defense money spent. And if you do ever have an accidental shooting, the modification or choice of an extra light trigger would really work against you then.

But, if you keep your finger off the trigger until you are justified in shooting, you can have a 1 ounce trigger and not have a problem. And as an aside, I think I have posted before about my early training showing how even a double action revolver can be fired by accident when you get startled. The lighter the trigger, the easier it is if you have a finger on it.

Once again, Steve has done an excellent job of addressing the relevant points here.

One thing I would add is that, in a life threatening situation, as your heart rate rockets up, you will rapidly lose fine motor control (like what's needed to deftly manipulate a light trigger). In a situation where the finger is in the trigger guard (where it's not supposed to be until you've decided to shoot, but where you may find it in an unfamiliar situation when you're facing a dangerous opponent) the chances of an ND go way up.

On the other side of the coin, heavier is not necessarily better. In a startle response situation, the hands of an adult male will clench with at least 25 pounds of force - more than enough to discharge any gun. If the finger is on the trigger when that happens, that gun is going to fire. Also, as some have already pointed out, a lighter trigger is easier to shoot well with and a heavier trigger adds risk that shots will not go where intended. Shots that go where they're supposed to reduce liability, and shots that don't, increase it.

NYPD, with their heavy triggers and limited availability of training time, has some serious problems with getting their shots to go where they're supposed to. It's hard to say just how much of the problem comes from which cause, but I think it's fair to say that very heavy trigger pulls don't help.

There is no magic trigger pull weight number. Most suitable combat guns have trigger pulls somewhere between 4 and 12 pounds. Keeping the finger outside the trigger guard until a decision to fire has been made is critical with all of them. IMHO going outside those numbers increases risk, particularly in a shooting where justification is not as clear cut as we'd like it to be.

[Oldgringo]

Srothstein and Excaliber have answered Bunkins' original question perfectly, IMO. I once had a prairie dog rifle (.22-250) that went off when I thought "bang". Prairie dogs don't have lawyers.

[atxbandit]

I'm not sure what the problem is with light triggers. I bought a LE trade in that came stock with a 3.5lb connector. It was a Missouri state hwy patrol trade in. Summit Gun broker had some MSHPs on their website awhile back and stated that they also had the 3.5lb connector. Just keep you finger off the trigger till your ready to shoot.

[Bunkins]

Interesting points made, thanks for the responses

Light triggers in a carry gun, it never crossed my mind that it may get into legal problems in the end. So it's more of a " if you've got the money, or want to take the chance" type situation? Not really a mechanical thing, like I was thinking it could be. But I had no clue either way, it makes much more sense now. When you hear "NEVER put a light trigger in a carry gun" the first thing that comes to mind ( or my mind anyways ) is safety issues.

Things said in court like " He modified his pistol because he was trigger happy ", I could see that happening, but I could also defend myself in that situation with proof. Almost every gun I have has had trigger work done, either by me or a gunsmith. I'm a recreational shooter, real simple. It could also be said that I'm trigger happy because I carry in the first place. You could counter that by saying that in the CHL class you were told if you pull a gun your mindset should be to use it, not show it. That you were taught to stop the threat, period. Then mention this course is designed by the DPS. Those facts would pretty much put all that stuff to rest, because like the other statements made against you are speculation, those you state are fact. You'd think it would work that way anyways.... But I know where you guys are going with this, and it just goes to show that a lawyer can and will try anything to get a jury to see things in a way that benefits their client. If it's a questionable shooting, you could be in trouble, for several things. But a completely legal shooting, I dont see how anything a lawyer says could put you away, though it's happened. It could also be said that if you met that same lawyer in a questionable shooting case, the outcome wont be any better..

I've been in a few situations that were life threatening, a handful of times with a firearm in my hands. I know my ability under stress, thats not saying I will react the same in every situation.

I can say though that I'm confident in my ability to control myself, though not everyone can say that. A jury has no idea how I react, most of them would have no idea how they would react, all they can do is guess at what they would do. They only know the facts presented to them, and a modified handgun could come back to haunt you later on if you have a clever lawyer trying to put you behind bars.. The issue of the New York trigger, and the reason behind it is a fact, well documented it seems from the brief time I spent looking for it. That could be used against you, countless things could..... So it's back to my original thought, if you want a lighter pull trigger, you've got to ask yourself if your willing to spend the money to defend yourself. The same thought is there when you carry in the first place. But not a "NEVER put a light trigger in your carry gun" thing, at least without mentioning the legal issues you may face because of it..

What will I do after this subject? Well before I was blowing it off, but with what you guys brought up I'm unsure now and I will have to think about it.. I do have several lawyer friends, so I may hit them up on the issue and see what their response is. If I get the chance in a timely manor I will summarize their response in this thread.

[seamusTX]

These issues just do not come up in Texas jurisprudence. That is not to say they won't come up tomorrow. Some cities are becoming sadly yuppified.

I do not modify my firearms. I don't have the expertise to do it myself, and I don't care to pay someone to do it. I just learn to shoot what is in my hand.

- Jim

[Liberty]

These issues just do not come up in Texas jurisprudence. That is not to say they won't come up tomorrow. Some cities are becoming sadly yuppified.

I do not modify my firearms. I don't have the expertise to do it myself, and I don't care to pay someone to do it. I just learn to shoot what is in my hand.

- Jim

I tend to agree with Jim. I can understand though why one might a lighter trigger for competitive games etc. My biggest concern with light Glock triggers is with holstering. I don't believe that Glock leg is always caused by a finger on the trigger, but sometimes by errant piece of clothing getting within a trigger guard. Did the DEA agent that shot himself while instructing the children pull the trigger with his finger or his shirttail.? As Jim says you learn to shoot with what you have, you learn the specific strengths and weaknesses of what you carry.

[bdickens]

One word: liability.

By keeping the trigger stock, you avoid the "hair trigger" argument. As in "this psychopathic killer was so bloodthirsy that he modified his gun to have a hair trigger to make it much easier to kill old ladies and children when he went on his murderous rampage."