Hypothetical situation regarding kidnapping

[xbrotherx]

So, as I assume most of us do, I run through scenarios in my head constantly. One just came to mind after reading a crime report about an individual that has been spotted trying to coerce children to come near his truck in and around my neighborhood and being seen masturbating around parks in the area...naked no less. We have the type of truck and license plate (white Chevy).

If I saw this individual trying to coerce my child or even a neighbor's child into his vehicle, do I have the right as licensed carrier, or for that matter, private property owner, to draw my weapon upon that person to "stop" them from kidnapping? At that point I am fearing for the life and safety of my or my neighbors children. Granted, I would want to get REAL close to him so as to not hit the child or anything or anyone beyond my intended target if I decide to fire. This scenario does take place in front of my house. We could expand it to be a public park as well, which could open up a whole can of worms.

Any thoughts, criticisms, etc.?

[Keith B]

So, as I assume most of us do, I run through scenarios in my head constantly. One just came to mind after reading a crime report about an individual that has been spotted trying to coerce children to come near his truck in and around my neighborhood and being seen masturbating around parks in the area...naked no less. We have the type of truck and license plate (white Chevy).

If I saw this individual trying to coerce my child or even a neighbor's child into his vehicle, do I have the right as licensed carrier, or for that matter, private property owner, to draw my weapon upon that person to "stop" them from kidnapping? At that point I am fearing for the life and safety of my or my neighbors children. Granted, I would want to get REAL close to him so as to not hit the child or anything or anyone beyond my intended target if I decide to fire. This scenario does take place in front of my house. We could expand it to be a public park as well, which could open up a whole can of worms.

Any thoughts, criticisms, etc.?

In Texas, you can only use deadly force to prevent AGGRAVATED kidnapping. Aggravated kidnapping is:

CHAPTER 20. KIDNAPPING AND UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT

§ 20.04. AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person with the intent to:
(1) hold him for ransom or reward;
(2) use him as a shield or hostage;
(3) facilitate the commission of a felony or the flight after the attempt or commission of a felony;
(4) inflict bodily injury on him or violate or abuse him sexually;
(5) terrorize him or a third person; or
(6) interfere with the performance of any governmental or political function.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly abducts another person and uses or exhibits a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a felony of the first degree.
(d) At the punishment stage of a trial, the defendant may raise the issue as to whether he voluntarily released the victim in a safe place. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the offense is a felony of the second degree.


Now, the problem is what intent there is. Since the person has been seen doing the deviant things, then the expectation is the child is in danger of being sexually molested. So, I would think that number 4 above would be in play and you would be justified. Again, that is my view but IANAL.

[ClarkLZeuss]

Darn, Keith B beat me to it, but did so with greater clarity than I would have.

xbrotherx, has this person been spotted in NW Austin, and is the suspect an older, Hispanic male? If so, please PM me to talk more details. There was a suspicious person in my grandma's neighborhood, and these guys might be one and the same.

[fickman]

First, I'd be very clear I knew what was going on before presenting a firearm. If it's your kid, you will know whether or not they know the individual in the truck. . . don't be so sure for a neighbor.

Second, I don't think it's AGGRAVATED if the perv-perp is just very persuasive, handing out candy, showing kids his new puppy, or whatever. If he grabs a kids, threatens them, displays a weapon of any kind, gets them into his vehicle (thus giving you the imprisonment piece), then I think you're justified to draw and demand he stop. If he claims to have a right to the kid, tell him the police can sort it out when they get here.

It's a murky situation if it's not your kid. . . play the what if game:
- What if that was their dad who they despise and don't want to go with, but he has legal visitation
- What if that was their uncle or other legal guardian who you've never met
- What if the kid was running away and the parent is forcing them back home against their will (maybe you see this in a park or something)

The better you know the kid, the more bold you can be. I'm not advocating allowing a stranger's kid to be abducted. Maybe you call the police and follow the vehicle - get the license plate and description. Maybe you tell him to stop while you call the police and let them sort it out. If he escalates and threatens you, tell him straight up what you suspect. Even if he's irate, reasonable people should be able to see what the situation looks like and - after the fact - appreciate an involved citizen trying to prevent a kidnapping. If he threatens you or tries to leave and you're pretty sure it's an aggravated kidnapping, then draw.

It's probably going to be instinctual. . . there's an endless number of scenarios and a few little facts could change each one dramatically. You have to weigh in your value system the regret of observing a kidnapping and knowing you could have intervened with the ramifications of acting and being wrong.

Your scenario referred to your own kids, so I'd openly and belligerently tell somebody not to talk to my kids and to move on. If I saw them touch, grab, assault, or try to get my kid into a vehicle, I'd draw before I said a word.

[fredtubbs]

If I saw them touch, grab, assault, or try to get my kid into a vehicle, I'd draw before I said a word.

Then, I would yell quite loudly for all witnesses to hear 'That is my child, do not touch them or I will treat you as a threat.' Let's bystanders have a better idea who the bad guy is... and that he's not the guy with the gun.

[TraCoun]

Others may correct me, but I think simply making your presence known might have a pretty big impact. The earlier the better.
TraCoun

[bryang]

Those kind of scum bags are cowards, and I think just your presence at the scene he would probably take off. Get the license number and the description of him and the car...call 911.

Of course if he grabs one of the children then that is a whole new ballgame.

-geo

[BigRon]

1. As has been stated, make sure you know the situation. Clint Smith put up a slide and told a story in a Thunder Ranch class that sounded like a classic example of helping a little old lady. Most of the class thought they would intervene. Then Clint told us "the rest of the story": the old lady was a drug dealer and the "assailant" was an undercover cop. Congratulations, you just committed several felonies against a police officer.

2. Again, if you don't PERSONALLY know the child; a) Call 911 b) Follow the supposed perpretrator while communicating with police, or c) Question the man about his actions if you feel you must, but keep your .458 doomblaster concealed. I know it will be tough to show restraint, but many mistakes are made when we jump to conclusions based on incomplete information.

3. If the guy is a bad actor, simply shouting at him may run him off. These guys are probably cowards. It doesn't take much of a man to attack children.

[CompVest]

Another thought: we just about all have cell phones and those phone pretty much all have cameras/videos. I would make it clear that I was taking pictures of the situation. This might make the BG if indeed it is a BG decide to go elsewhere. Plus you will have a great description!

[tarkus]

Unless I know the people involved I'm calling 911 and being a good witness.