My hands are deadly weapons!!!

[AFJailor]

I went to a party at a friends house and everything was good at first, until uninvited people started to show up. (friends of friends) I looked at the door as a young male entered looking particularly thugish. Turns out hes a 20-some-odd yr old double felon and made darn sure to tell every girl there this information...i guess as a pick up line.

I was pretty much done hanging out and was about to leave when I hear this guy going on about how when he got out of prison he started studying martial arts...so much that now he has to register himself as a deadly weapon. Most of the people there laughed and a buddy of mine said to him "Wow, that's crazy because I have a few guns in my house and never had to register them...so you must be SUPER deadly". I left at that point but told the wife about it when I got home and we shared a good laugh.

I have heard this now from three different individuals throughout my life and each time I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard.

I am really curious if anyone has ever heard someone make claims of this before and also if anyone knows where this old wives tale comes from.

[Skiprr]

...When he got out of prison he started studying martial arts...so much that now he has to register himself as a deadly weapon... I am really curious if anyone has ever heard someone make claims of this before and also if anyone knows where this old wives tale comes from.

I love it.

And you betcha I've heard it. Having first begun martial arts in 1966, I've heard a lot.

Absolute myth in the U.S., of course.

Well, let me rephrase that: it is absolute myth that registration of one's hands and/or feet is required by any governmental or law enforcement entity. Unfortunately, that's not to say unscrupulous martial arts "masters" might issue--for a fee, of course--certificates that indicate the bearer is so amazing that his or her body is registered as a deadly weapon.

Maybe it's just economics or the changing decades, but I am far less trusting, even less respectful, than I was when I moved back to the States 30 years ago. Now, seemingly, there are almost as many martial arts schools as there are Starbucks.

In the '80s what I found vulgar were the mega-dojo chains in multiple cities trying to adopt what was then the health club hard-sell model, one that presented a cookie-cutter form of...something: generally a genericised form of Shotokan or Taekwando.

But what started happening in the '90s, after the mega-dojo business concept proved unviable, was even more disturbing: people founding and naming their own systems of martial arts and promoting themselves accordingly to "grand master"...in seemingly every neighborhood of every city in the U.S.

These small schools started springing up like Orville Redenbacher's popcorn. And even a (slightly) more informed public had a hard time chipping through the obfuscation to determine who was real and who wasn't. (Hint: By a landslide percentage, most self-acclaimed "masters" are not. Check the bio very closely.)

Yeah, this subject obviously pushes my buttons, but I'll try to keep it relevant.

Asian fighting arts really didn't creep onto American soil in any public way until the early 1960s. Other than small pockets of practitioners, the Judoka were probably the only semi-familiar figures exercising arts from the East. Novels, movies, and TV began to change this by the mid '60s.

Novels, movies, and television give us such a trusted, factual view of the world, don't they?

Here's how I think the myth of registering yourself as a deadly weapon began. IMHO.

Harken back to WWII when Joe Louis was boxing's heavyweight champion of the world. I think he reigned from 1940 to 1949. Professional boxing then wasn't much less outrageous than professional wrestling is today. It was a fairly common practice in promoting big matches to have the local constabulary on hand to "register" the boxer's hands as deadly weapons. Carried absolutely no force of law, of course. It was publicity.

Concurrently, in post-WWII Japan, those skills determined to be a martial art were rendered illegal. People who were known to be experienced in these fighting arts had their names recorded. To my knowledge, this lasted only a few years into the post-war environment. Thank goodness we didn't forever lose that body of knowledge to legislation. This is the closest I know of actual registration of an individual's hands and feet as deadly weapons.

As the Asian fighting arts promulgated through the U.S. in the '60s and early '70s, it's understandable how a myth of having to register oneself as a deadly weapon might have come about. Too, for several years some pretty bizarre elements of mysticism and fantasy were associated with martial arts, some drawn from original folktales, some just plain fabricated. Besides, the hands-as-deadly-weapon thing made for great fiction.

Could your two-time felon actually have thought his body was registered as a deadly weapon? Absolutely. If so, look no further than his dishonorable--and most likely undertrained--"master."

[stevie_d_64]

Bruce Lee said it best in an interview before he died...

"All the martial arts training and experience (in the world) are no match for a 44 magnum."

The thug's boastfulness would get a smile, maybe even a little snicker, then I walk away...

[tboesche]

I have black belts in Gun-Fu and Klikpow.

[dicion]

The most famous Martial/Swordfighting Arts Vs. Gun battle:

[CompVest]

That is absolutely my favorite movie scene!

I would not snicker and walk away I would go for the real fun and engage him conversation to see how far he would go with his stories. He may not be even a criminal just a want-a-be! But just in case he is a real bad apple I would never have mentioned that I had guns in the house. He might have been there for more then the party. He might have been checking the house out as a possible burglary prospect.

[Keith B]

The most famous Martial/Swordfighting Arts Vs. Gun battle:

Funny story about this scene. Apparently in the scene he was supposed to use the whip to take the sword out of the bad guys hand. However, while shooting the scene, he had a bad stomach bug with a severe case of diarrhea. Just as he was supposed to take the whip and lash out a major pain hit, he gets the look of disgust on his face and takes out the gun and shoots the guy. Harrison Ford told this himself on one of the late night talk shows once.

[USA1]

I have black belts in Gun-Fu and Klikpow.

i often get those at the chinese buffet ...later that evening, my wife often refers to me as deadly

[longhorn_92]

I have black belts in Gun-Fu and Klikpow.

i often get those at the chinese buffet ...later that evening, my wife often refers to me as deadly

Oh NO you Didn't! ....

[WildBill]

I am really curious if anyone has ever heard someone make claims of this before and also if anyone knows where this old wives tale comes from.

Ever since I was a little kid, I have heard this said about professional boxers - their hands are registered as deadly weapons. That implied that if they even threw a punch it would be attempted murder rather than assault.

[dicion]

Are they 'registered' as deadly weapons? No.

Could it constitute 'Lethal Force' if, say, Evander Holyfield came up to me in a dark alley, and started throwing punches? Very Likely.
Would you get no-billed if you used lethal force to defend yourself in such a situation? That's for the grand jury to decide.

It sort of falls under the 'grey area' of lethal force. Pretty much, you have to prove that you knew, or were confident, that that person, or persons were capable of, and desiring to, kill you with their bare hands.
Recognizing them as a 'professional' fighter of some kind, or a verbal statement like 'we're going to kill you' would help justify using it in that sort of situation.

The way my instructor put it, a 3 on 1 could be considered lethal force, and a man using bare hands against a woman is almost ALWAYS considered 'lethal force'.

He said that there are 3 things that a jury looks at to justify lethal force at the exact time you apply it. The exact wording he used may have been different, but i think I've got the concept down:

Capability - Can they physically kill or severely wound you, or a third party, with a gun, weapons, hands, whatever.
Desirability - Do they want to??
Ability - Can they actually do it, right there. right then.

He said that you need all three, or at least a reasonable belief on your part that all 3 are present. Lack of any one of the three removes justification for lethal force.

Example A: A Crazed Evander Holyfield is arrested by police, and put in a cell. I'm walking by, he yells at me 'I'm going to kill you!!'

Capability - Can he kill me, with his bare hands? Probably
Desirability - He just said he wanted to
Ability - No, he's behind bars and cannot reach me.

Example B: A CHL Holder in a bank, doing daily business

Capability - He has a gun. Yes
Desirability - No
Ability - Yes

Example C: A Mugger Robs an old lady at gunpoint, grabs the purse, and starts to run away. A CHL holder gets to the lady just after this happens, and the mugger is running away.

Capability - Gun
Desirability - He is running away, so at that exact point in time, no.
Ability - Once again, Gun.

Example D: You steal a young kid's ice creme cone at a park. "You meanie! I'm going to kill you!!!"

Capability - Um. No
Desirability - He very well might want to.
Ability - No.

Example E: A Man walks up to you in a stop-n-rob, with a candy bar under his shirt pointing at you. "I Have a gun, and I'm going to kill you".

Capability - YES, or at least you BELIEVE SO, since you do not know it is really a candy bar, and not a gun.
Desirability - He just said so, lying or not
Ability - YES. To you, at that exact point in time, he has full ability to follow through.

Example C is the one that most people have the hardest time with. "But he robbed her at GUNPOINT!" they say. Yes, he did. And at the time he had her at gunpoint, lethal force would have been justified, but since he has since turned tail and left, it is no longer considered lethal force.

Now, an actual situation will never be as cut and dry as the above examples... we only wish that every person who pulls a gun would loudly announce that they plan to kill everyone. Makes no-bills quicker :)

That's how it was explained to me. Comments/criticism's welcome :)

[A-R]

Great post, dicion. You took a rather humorous real-life experience and joking follow ups (which are all great, don't ge me wrong) and were able to spin it into something useful to all who use CHL. Really puts this all into perspective. And I also find great benefit in any situational mind games one can use for training the brain for similar real-life situations.

If I encountered the same guy at the party, I also would not have mentioned my own guns (in addition to stated possibilty that he's casing the place looking to steal, any mention to any other person that "I have a gun" could be construed as a threat - we all know this is not what OP's friend meant, but why run the risk that not everyone thinks as we do about such things?). I likely would not have made the flippant remark at all - why antagonize the guy? You'd be amazed how quickly some minor perceived slight can set some guys into "I'm gonna whup your ..." mode. Probably would've just ignored the guy. But also would've made a mental note ... guy says he's a two-time con, so good at martial arts his hands are "registered as deadly weapons"; so if this guy corners me in a dark alley and demands my wallet, I'm shooting first and asking questions later.

Capability: yes, he says he can kill me with his bare hands - and he's committed crimes before
Desireabilty: slightly grey area, but anyone with the capability to kill me who is committing a face-to-face crime (robbery) is potentially a threat to my life
Ability: he's there, just me and him, in a dark alley, and he's demanding things ... so yeah, I'd say he has the ability

Another way to phrase the above three steps that I've always used (and that you hear in TV cop shows) is ..

Means
Motive
Opportunity

Basically means the same thing as previous three key words.

[jimlongley]

More than 40 years ago, while I was in the Navy, this "my hands are registered lethal weapons" repeated often. I think it came from some movie or tv line or other, Twilight Zone maybe, and even back then I used to ask, "Really, with which jurisdiction?" and then they would usually tell me it was a federal law, and then I would ask for the specific code, etc. I always ended with the fact that a .45 in my fist was probably better then their empty fist.

A few years after I got out of the Navy I became better prepared for such things. A young guy was posturing for fellow workers in the garage. He had some martial arts experience because he had the moves down pretty well, but then he made the "Registered Lethal Weapons" claim, and when asked he stated it was a NY law, at which point I whipped out my copy of a new publication that I was using in my pistol and rifle classes, Looseleaf Law, which included a copy of NY's entire penal and criminal code at the time and asked him which section he was referring to. He couldn't provide one and try as anyone might, nobody could find such a provision in the state law.

We never got along after that.

http://www.looseleaflaw.com/home/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dicion]

Means
Motive
Opportunity

Those are the 3 words I was looking for... for some reason, just couldn't think of them!

[JJVP]

I went to a party at a friends house and everything was good at first, until uninvited people started to show up. (friends of friends) I looked at the door as a young male entered looking particularly thugish. Turns out hes a 20-some-odd yr old double felon and made darn sure to tell every girl there this information...i guess as a pick up line.

I was pretty much done hanging out and was about to leave when I hear this guy going on about how when he got out of prison he started studying martial arts...so much that now he has to register himself as a deadly weapon. Most of the people there laughed and a buddy of mine said to him "Wow, that's crazy because I have a few guns in my house and never had to register them...so you must be SUPER deadly". I left at that point but told the wife about it when I got home and we shared a good laugh.

I have heard this now from three different individuals throughout my life and each time I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard.

I am really curious if anyone has ever heard someone make claims of this before and also if anyone knows where this old wives tale comes from.

You could have "whipped" him 3 times before he could retaliate, that is according to the guy on the attached article.

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2007/oct/ ... s-weapons/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;