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Just read another news item where a Doctor & his daughter were hiking/climbing a mountain area around Buena Vista, Colorado. Searchers found two bodies, but haven't identified them yet...don't know if it was these 2 or not yet.

Then there was the hiker couple of years back that was rock climbing alone and fell & locked his arm in a crevace. After several days he cut his own arm off so he could escape.

It seems there is an element that thinks they are "experienced," immortal, self-assured, etc., and think they are invincible. IMO, those that get themselves into serious trouble (and should know better, like the girl in Australia who was trying to sail around the world alone) probably get what they deserve...

Why anyone with presence of mind and an eye for that rare event would not carry adequate survival gear, a GUN or Survival Rifle, fully charged cell phone, emergency locator beacon, MATCHES OR A LIGHTER (yes...even if you are a NON Smoker), signaling equipment, food and water, etc., just amazes me!

Of course, these climbers/hikers are more than likely to NOT carry a substantial gun. There are bad things out there in the wilderness! However, they are, as a rule, overly optimistic and confident about their own safety and outdoormanship ability. [My daughter is one of those...hope I don't read about her in the news sometime...she lives in Colorado].

JMHO

It seems there is an element that thinks they are "experienced," immortal, self-assured, etc., and think they are invincible.

Those attributes are not exclusive to individuals of any one particular ideology, and are common among pretty much any potentially dangerous endeavor.

IMO, those that get themselves into serious trouble (and should know better, like the girl in Australia who was trying to sail around the world alone) probably get what they deserve...

I wouldn't use the word "deserve", however, I would agree that if one opts to play with fire, one shouldn't expect sympathy when they eventually get burned.

EDIT (to clarify): I'm talking about people who get lost or go out with zero preparation.

Probably has more to do with personality than any political leaning, though said personality might lend itself to a lefty mindset more easily than others (nothing bad will happen, and if it does someone will save me, I don't need to help myself).

My motto has been "be prepared" for years, and I wasn't even a Scout I hate jumping into something without knowing exactly what is going on, going to happen, and eventualities that can occur. I'm not a spontaneous person... if I'm going camping or hiking, I'm first spending hours online making sure my equipment is in order and I know the lay of the land, preferably with a topo map and compass at minimum. For some reason, even simple things like that don't even occur to them... they'll head across a valley with a bottle of water thinking everything is dandy.

I take offense to that merely suggesting I don't understand outdoor survival because I may be a liberal is insulting. I've been on everything from a two hour walk in the hill country to a four day hike through the Rockies. I and many many other liberals I know are very proficient at outdoor survival. And saying people who died 'got what they deserved" is even worse.

The OP's comments are tripe. I have known lots and lots of conservative outdoorsmen. Like Texas Dan Mosby said, a self-reliant personality is not confined to one particular ideology. Furthermore, where do you draw the line? Today, I wouldn't dream of backpacking without taking my .44 magnum along, but Uncle Ted Nugent hunts dangerous game with a bow and arrow. I know someone else who hunts hogs.....get this....with a knife. I think they are all crazy. But I don't think they "get what they deserve" if they get hurt. Yes, you could say, "well what did you expect?" to someone who gets hurt, but I still have some kind of compassion for them if they do, and frankly, that is not a part of my character makeup which I care to dispense with. Compassionless people are simply irritating in their smugness.

Long before I ever became a gun owner, I once backpacked the Gila Wilderness of New Mexico. It was just me and my (now ex) wife, and the year was 1974. The only weapons we had with us were a hunting knife and a hatchet, and the hatched wasn't brought along because it was a weapon. I certainly didn't think I was invincible. It's not that I deliberately decided not to bring a gun along, it was just that it didn't even occur to me that I might run into any danger where a gun might be necessary. It's not a sense of invincibility so much as it is simply a naiveté about what kind of dangers you might face. At the time, I wasn't worried about wildlife, and I didn't really think I might run into other hikers. As it turned out, we did run into 2 guys and a girl together about a week out, who were returning to "civilization." They were, quite literally, backpacking naked. If they had weapons, they sure didn't have any place to hide them which were quickly and easily accessible.

loadedliberal wrote:I take offense to that merely suggesting I don't understand outdoor survival because I may be a liberal is insulting. I've been on everything from a two hour walk in the hill country to a four day hike through the Rockies. I and many many other liberals I know are very proficient at outdoor survival. And saying people who died 'got what they deserved" is even worse.

Apparently my candor is not appreciated by all... :) "Deserved" was perhaps harsh...I should have said, "You made your bed, now lay in it..."

Drawing comments from "gun people" who have often indicated that "liberals" (generically) are "anti-gun" added to my thinking and comments.

Being a 3rd generation Texan, I had also lived 10 years in the Colorado Front Range. Also recall numerous incidents where those "not prepared" decided to take a hike in the mountains with only a bottle of water, shorts, T-Shirt, and their hiking shoes...not understanding that anytime of the year the mountains can change weather unexpectedly, and at times life-threatening. The same held true for "flatlander" pilots who ended up crashing their small plane because they didn't check on or understand the weather patterns in the mountains, mountains obscured, downdrafts, etc. The rescue people as well as the Ski Patrol were kept busy when the seasons changed (esp. in the winter months) and "summer dressed" hikers suddenly found themselves in a snowstorm, lost, and freezing weather after sundown.

When the weather "goes South" in the mountains, one can get lost easily, especially if they are not following a defined, designated trail.

In any event, any serious outdoor activity should include proper equipment, pre-planning, and in wilderness areas some type of firearm for the occasional, if not rare, with a bear, cougar, etc.

Hate to tell ya, but we've spent all of our lives hiking, climbing and horseback (sorta comes with the territory when you're born in the mountains). It's not at all about being "invincible" but about just having an affinity for climbing. There's really no rhyme or reason, but it's really a natural thing for us and our kids. We've been truly out of our element around here.

As to carrying a "substantial" gun, I have to agree; mouse guns would be just about all, and anything good enough for bear would require horseback. Every pound on your back feels like 10 by the end; I made the mistake one time of trying to carry a camcorder, and there were times I wished it would disappear down a cliff (it didn't)!

Running Arrow Bill wrote:In any event, any serious outdoor activity should include proper equipment, pre-planning, and in wilderness areas some type of firearm for the occasional, if not rare, with a bear, cougar, etc.

That goes without saying.... but you have to understand that there are tens of millions of people who enjoy the outdoors who are not gun owners. They may not even be anti-gun. Guns just aren't a part of their lives. Guns aren't on their radar.....so it just doesn't occur to them to carry one along. But those same people may be otherwise experienced and well-equipped outdoorsmen. Sure, given what I know today, I would urge such people to bring along a firearm, but I'm not going to heap scorn on them because they don't.

Honestly, I'm not that worried about bears and cougars. I'm worried about other humans. Bear threats can be managed by proper food storage and disposal, and cougars will rarely ever attack a pair of humans. But human predators are truly dangerous.

Running Arrow Bill wrote:Then there was the hiker couple of years back that was rock climbing alone and fell & locked his arm in a crevace. After several days he cut his own arm off so he could escape.

This drives me crazy, he got all popular afterwards and even wrote a book I think, but what really happened is he escaped Darwin that day. He didn't even tell anyone he was going out.

Now I have been on countless backpacking treks before I got my CHL and never carried a gun on any of them, for one because when you are doing a 50 mile trek in the mountains you wouldn't want to carry a single bullet let alone a gun, its just to heavy. I never really worried about bears or other wild animals, store your food and stuff away from where you camp and you will be fine, unless you are up north. I believe in the Boy Scout motto, but there are a lot of things to be prepared for like how I once had to carry all my gear and my buddy gear, let me tell you that was a long day and I would not have wanted the extra weight of a gun. However at the same time there are some trails I would not touch without having a gun.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Running Arrow Bill wrote:In any event, any serious outdoor activity should include proper equipment, pre-planning, and in wilderness areas some type of firearm for the occasional, if not rare, with a bear, cougar, etc.

That goes without saying.... but you have to understand that there are tens of millions of people who enjoy the outdoors who are not gun owners. They may not even be anti-gun. Guns just aren't a part of their lives. Guns aren't on their radar.....so it just doesn't occur to them to carry one along. But those same people may be otherwise experienced and well-equipped outdoorsmen.

If they're sufficiently prepared, in whatever way, shape and form is appropriate for them, they generally don't make the news.

Politics aside, clearly some people are woefully unprepared for "Nature, red in tooth and claw" in all her glory. Perhaps such is outside their worldview. Perhaps they're willfully unprepared. IDK.

While I agree that some go out unprepared, I think there's a dimension that isn't being addressed.

Some go out fully prepared... to die at the hands of nature. They give due diligence in their preparations, prioritizing their needs, and then they accept that there's only so much they can learn and pack and carry and do. They are willing to face death if it comes at the hands of a bear or a cliff despite their preparations. These people prepare so much mentally that they rarely die (or at least we rarely hear about it), but it still happens.

Once one starts traveling primarily in the wilderness, one has to reach this acceptance to some degree. Otherwise, all that's needed to face every what-if will become the what-if. At a certain point, physical objects become more of a liability than a support, and the more extreme the circumstances the quicker prioritizations must be made. I think the mindset of anyone who looks into these opportunities and decides to move forward is, by its nature, different from the mindset of the average CHL holder in an urban environment. Not in all things, but within their scope. The real threats to a wilderness outbacker or similar extreme sports enthusiast are major forces of nature one has little to no control over, not a bear you can most likely avoid.

Do you think political liberals are better able to accept that there are things they can't control and to take up the challenge anyway? I don't know. If so, I'd think it was more of a correlation than a causation as I don't see an overlap with that mindset and their political theory. Interesting hypothesis you've postulated anyway.

Well. Interesting thread. Like my dad used to say "opinons are like 'another part of the anatomy', everybody has one". Here's mine.

I've hiked with many liberals; still do. I may not agree with their politics but that doesn't make them stupid in the backcountry...carelessness and lack of respect for the terrian knows no political boundaries.

Also, there are a lot of hazards in the forest/mountains that require more than a gun for self preservation.

A national forest is eight miles from my door. It starts at 6500 feet. I hike there several times a month each summer and have for years. I am always cautious and so far...so far....I'm still at it. God is my Shepard but he'd never forgive me for being unprepared

Altitude, terrain, and fatigue takes more unprepared people than bears; the bears just cleanup the mess.

Any type of trail where you may not meet another human is a trail to be respected. They are also the most enjoyable and challenging. Most gain altitude rather rapidly as they follow drainage (water flows downhill, game need water, therefore most desolate hiking trails are really game trails). Due to these factors, if you are not in good physical condition you put yourself at risk. This risk is multiplied if you get lost.

Study maps and know how to use a compass. Call me old fashion but I still carry a compass and check my bearing often. Getting lost is a killer. You must, must know where you are especially on the return; to come down a wrong drainage can put you miles from your starting point an vehicle. Plan, plan, plan, then worry about the size of your gun.

With regard to protection...I always hike with my dog. I'm on my second hiking dog and can't imagine being in backcountry without her. She is my early warning radar. If she is cautious; I am cautious. I rationalized that I carry a gun to protect my dog.

As for gear, I always carry a 25 pound pack. In it is 6.6 pounds of water in a platypus bag, a compass, altimeter, topo map, extra key to my car, extra shirt, socks, underwear, Gore tex hooded rain jacket, stocking cap, down jacket, zip lock bag with several pieces of fat wood, lighter and matches, surveyors florescent tape, energy bars, raisins, leather gloves, note pad, pencil, GMRS radio (receives NOAA weather station and can transmit on the station monitored by forset service), small binoculars....last but not least may be field guides for scat, trees etc.

Outside the pack on my person is my G27, two spare mags, a very sharp knife, a pocket BUG and a camera.

Other than the food and water I've not used much of the gear myself but many times I've given someone a shirt, cap, jacket, gloves, food, water, etc. You'd be amazed a how far some people go with little more than a stick of gum. Last year I took my niece's husband to a mountain area with goats and he wore tennis shoes....yes, tennis shoes. After a couple of hours walking on rocks and in scree (talus) he had torn a shoe, then going through a marsh wet the socks, and the gum got old. He did not have fun but he did enjoy my spare dry socks.

I also tell someone exactly where I intend to go, where I'm parking and when I plan to be back. That's about it. And yes I do often wear both a belt and suspenders.

BTW cell phones have a nasty habit of not finding service in mountainous areas that can consume a human.

I agree with this. It's not left/right, it's about knowledge.

Wit that being said, I have two words:

Alexander Supertramp

Some years back I read somewhere that more people die of exposure to the elements in Texas than any other state,
including cold weather Yankee states. If this is true, I have seen plenty of examples of it that always leave me
shaking my head. Of course exposure to the elements could include both heat and cold.

Joe Bob may be a native Texan and even in the winter, he's going to wear only a T-shirt and a pair of shorts.
No long sleeves or jacket for this guy. So when his pickup breaks down out in back of beyond, he freezes to death
since he is woefully unprepared.

This past winter we had a spell in DFW of weather where the temp was about 10 degrees F and the wind chill must
have been zero easily. While gassing up I saw a guy in a 20 year old beater Ford who had on only a T-shirt and shorts.
I said to him "You need to wear some clothes. If your car slid off the road or wouldn't start, you'd freeze to death."
He laughed and said "I guess you're right". Death - it was a big joke to him. Ron White's "You can't fix stupid" sure
applied.

When it's wintertime, even in Texas, you need to dress for cold weather. Whenever I see idiots like that guy who are
wearing summer time clothing when the wind chill is able to kill you, I always ask myself this question:
Are these native Texans who just feel entitled to always wear a T-shirt and shorts, no matter the weather,
OR Are these Yankee transplants who are going to show everyone how tough they can be?

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By the way, rescue staff in rural/mountainous areas have definitely noticed a big increase in people who are unprepared
for the wilderness, then call in on a cell phone and expect to be rescued.

Many rescuers must put themselves in danger to rescue Joe City Slicker and friends, who should have known better
to get themselves into trouble.

By the way, a good metal whistle can also be a good thing to pack in your gear. If you ever needed to bring rescuers to
you, it takes much less effort to blow a whistle than to yell across vast distances.

SIA

After too many years in the Infantry, especially in cold climates, hiking and camping out are not on my "to do" list anymore My idea of a wilderness visit is in a Bluebird motor home, with a/c, heat, and a satellite dish!

On the serious side, I have rescued by helicopter, in Alaska, my share of adventurers who though they were trained, experienced and prepared for their chosen quest. It's always a sad thing to pull a body off a mountain, or give up the search for a missing hiker. The wilderness can kill you, or swallow you up in a heartbeat. As for weapons, a survival weapon is a good idea. You may need it for long term survival to take small game, but that 10mm is not a bear gun. As they used to say on NYPD Blue, "be careful out there."