When buying firearms.

[KinnyLee]

So I was at a local gunstore looking at firearms, and there is a long gun I was interested in so I asked to have a look. I looked it over and it's exactly what I wanted with an exception of a marred up receiver. The optics rail also has finish wear on it. Price was right so I pushed the salesman to see if he could talk to the manager in knocking $50 off of the price of $1350. The manager wouldn't lower the price. He said that I could look at another one they have in stock to see I would buy the other one. Receiver still marred up but in much better condition. However, there are these scratches on the barrel itself.
Now I may be anal retentive about firearms, but if I pay over $1400 with tax on a firearm, it better not have any wear or scratches on it. I will put the wear and tear on it myself.
So, I just handed the salesman both firearms and told him I'll think about it and left.
Do you guys think what I did was wrong? The salesman said it's because they were leaning the long guns in the safe by the receiver and front sights. I don't blame the salesman. He was very helpful and courteous, but I just can't sink $1400 on something that isn't near perfect to begin with.

[Cosmo 9]

It's your money spend it however you see fit, you can't be wrong.

[txinvestigator]

It's your money spend it however you see fit, you can't be wrong.

[Venus Pax]

I always believe that we let businesses know our wants by how we spend our money.
You didn't want to spend that much on a gun with flaws. You told the manager that in the strongest way possible.
I think you did what you thought best. I would have likely done the same thing.

[jbirds1210]

I know there is little room for profit on some long guns....fifty bucks off some guns could blow all of the profit for a business.

That said, it is not really your problem.....I would have done the same thing. Smiled and said thanks, but no thanks.
Jason

[yerasimos]

Once I ordered a new firearm from a reputable manufacturer/distributor, and there was a couple of permanent marks in the finish on the chamber portion of the barrel (it was a semiautomatic pistol). As far as I know, it came that way from the factory or acquired such markings when the importer handled it. And if you look closely at new cars, you can pick out minor flaws in the sheet metal fit, and occasional ham-handedness in the fitting of interior components.

It is possible that our expectations of quality are ahead of some manufacturers' abilities to deliver such quality to the retail customer. That, or some modern-day craftsmen simply do not take pride in their work. Or possibly end-of-line QC is deliberately loosened to release mechandise that is functional but cosmetically blemished, so that profit margins are protected. In the case of daily-driver vehicles and carry guns, some folks are willing to let minor issues of fit and finish slip by. Such "features" would not be acceptable on custom-built, safe-queen 1911s, or limited-run automobiles with six-figure prices.

Like Cosmo 9 implied in his post, it is a free market. If they were not selling acceptable merchandise (and in this context, you define what is acceptable and what is not), you did the right thing by wheeling on your heel and leaving. And as you told the salesman, you are still thinking about it, so I do not see the need for any guilt.

[flintknapper]

Like Cosmo 9 implied in his post, it is a free market. If they were not selling acceptable merchandise (and in this context, you define what is acceptable and what is not), you did the right thing by wheeling on your heel and leaving. And as you told the salesman, you are still thinking about it, so I do not see the need for any guilt.

Roger that!

Good on ya Kinny.

[Skiprr]

It is possible that our expectations of quality are ahead of some manufacturers' abilities to deliver such quality to the retail customer.

I'd actually counter that statement. I posted in another Topic about the incredible change in handguns in particular (what I know most about--though I realize this thread is about a long gun) in the past decade or so. Computer Aided Design and Manufacturing (CAD/CAM) and CNC machining have revolutionized firearm design, proof-of-concept testing, and even milling the piece of steel (or casting the polymer or MIM, as the case may be).

Twenty years ago only a select few craftsmen could build you a custom firearm, and they did it as artisans, taking minute bits of clay away a piece at a time until the final sculpture was revealed. We certainly don't want to lose the artistry, and if we ever lose the original creativity we're doomed. But "custom" is "common" nowadays.

Manufacturing principles and methods like Lean and Six Sigma aren't new. I would, frankly, expect the manufacturer of my plastic disposable dental floss holder to use these and other Business Process Management (BPM) best practices. Much less the manufacturer of my firearm.

So I hold firearm manufacturers to a very high standard of quality. Higher now than ever before. I'm not saying computer-driven machining will beat an artisan's care and molding, but out-of-the-box from the major manufacturers what we see today should be the best we've ever seen. That's technological progression.

Back on topic. If the gun(s) Kinny looked at was scarred and marred: no sale. Don't know who's fault it was--guy packing it at the manufacturer; shipper; guy receiving it at the dealer; guy moving it around at the dealer's store--doesn't matter. I'm not buying a new car with a key-scratch down the side, and I'm not buying a new gun with the same sort of abuse.

Kinny, you were too kind. Instead of, "I'll think about it," I'd have said, "You would have had my business, but I can't accept a damaged product."

[yerasimos]

Skiprr, think of it this way: a manufacturer could have two-three dozen whiz-bang engineers and technicians using CAD/CAM and CNC machining, with a dozen six-sigma black belt managers running the show. It only takes two distracted guys--one talking on a cell phone while handling his car keys near some unprotected guns, the other rushing to box them before his shift ends--to send the guns to the distributor/dealer with scratches. Accidents happen in industry, and here the casualty is quality.

I do not doubt the design quality in modern firearms and I take your word at face value regarding the skill with which the parts are designed, made and assembled. Maintaining merchandise's perceived quality all the way from assembly to sale is a separate matter, and in my experience and KinnyLee's, it was found lacking.

[KinnyLee]

If the gun(s) Kinny looked at was scarred and marred: no sale. Don't know who's fault it was--guy packing it at the manufacturer; shipper; guy receiving it at the dealer; guy moving it around at the dealer's store--doesn't matter. I'm not buying a new car with a key-scratch down the side, and I'm not buying a new gun with the same sort of abuse.

Kinny, you were too kind. Instead of, "I'll think about it," I'd have said, "You would have had my business, but I can't accept a damaged product."

Hehe, I've been told that I am too nice. I guess I'm used to being diplomatic about everything. One funny note I failed to mentioned is that after I asked him to talk to the manager about knocking $50 off, he actually went inside the office for a good 30 second. Mind you that the long gun is still in my hands with one customer filling out paperwork on a pistol not knowing what's going on. There were absolutely no one at the counter. I was thinking to myself "Darn, if I am a criminal, I could easily walkout with this before they knew what happened" But instead I held the firearm up right on the counter waiting for the salesman to come back.

[Skiprr]

Skiprr, think of it this way: a manufacturer could have two-three dozen whiz-bang engineers and technicians using CAD/CAM and CNC machining, with a dozen six-sigma black belt managers running the show. It only takes two distracted guys--one talking on a cell phone while handling his car keys near some unprotected guns, the other rushing to box them before his shift ends--to send the guns to the distributor/dealer with scratches. Accidents happen in industry, and here the casualty is quality.

Then the Six Sigma gurus and/or managers should be fired. Plain and simple. Accidents happen in finished products only because they are allowed to happen. It doesn't matter if it's the designers fault or the guy who does pack-to-ship.

I'd be more apt to suspect the two distracted guys accidentally scratching the gun with a handful of keys was downstream, probably at the dealer. The dealer is a retailer, often a small business under a few million dollars in revenue, without the benefit of business process management frameworks used by large companies. My local dealer, whom I love and support with my purchases, takes his ARs and AKs off the wall at the end of each business day--to prevent easy visibility for theft--and puts them back at the beginning of each business day. Were I to examine a damaged AR in his shop, it's that repetitive, unstructured activity I'd suspect over manufacturer error.

Accidents happen in the supply chain, but they should seldom--very, very seldom--happen in production. To achieve Six Sigma, a process must not produce more than 3.4 defects per million opportunities. I'm not saying all firearm manufacturers achieve Six Sigma, but in your example I'll stand by my statement that those managers need to be fired if some process so simple as pack-to-ship causes such an easy opportunity for damage. The company I work for is a Fortune 500, and I can attest that any defect up or down the production line is treated with equal importance.

[jrosto]

I guess it would depend on the firearm.

A Steyr Model M Luxus for $1400.00 would be a great deal, even with some scratches. A Kimber model 84, probably not.

[Jacob Staff]

Just curious what used gun is going for $1350. What is the price of a new one?

Apparently he had 2 of the same type, so I'm thinking in would not be too rare.

I find it hard to believe that they would not knock off the $50 if they wanted to make a sale. Is the profit margin on guns that tight?

[Rex B]

New product with blemishes and no discount = no sale.

I agree you should have pointedly and politely told them why they did not meet your expectations and thus lost a sale.
But I did almost the same thing at Kroger last week, left the store angry (and emptyhanded) without pointing out the absurdity of their position.

[gigag04]

Kinny, you were too kind. Instead of, "I'll think about it," I'd have said, "You would have had my business, but I can't accept a damaged product."

These are words that will change things. Great post.

+1