Accidental Discharge... Poor Mattress

[longtooth]

Press Check Junkie. Never heard of that title but it fits here too. As sure as I make sure one is clear when I pick it up or it is handed to me, I also press check anything I holster up that has been out of my site.
Same thing every time gentlemen.

[The Annoyed Man]

I killed the ceiling of my old house with a .44 Magnum about 13 years ago because I opened the cylinder, dumped the rounds into my hand, and said to myself, "yeah, that looks like six." Then I started dry firing it, pointed at the ceiling, about 10 inches from my left ear.

BIG mistake. I heard a sort of "click," felt the concussion sting the side of my face, and the world went dead silent except for a loud and high pitched ringing in my ears. It took 2 weeks to get the hearing back in my left ear, and it's never been the same since.

My wife had been out of town at a dental convention and arrived home a couple of hours later. I had to tell her, "Honey, I kinda shot the ceiling while you were gone." To this day, I am exceedingly paranoid about making sure that the chamber is empty, both by multiple visual inspections AND by sticking my pinky into the chamber, as well as function testing.

[LarryH]

I believe the correct title for this thread would be "Negligent Discharge -- Poor Mattress"

It's my understanding that AD's are caused by a malfunction of the gun itself, or "hardware failure".

This was obviously a "software failure", from the description, therefore ND.

[keyframe]

I would have to disagree. Negligence implies undue lack of concern. Regardless of my safety practices, when the round went off, I was performing a safety check to make sure there was not a round in the chamber. I intentionally squeezed the trigger while the pistol was pointed in a safe direction, all the time knowing that there is a possibility of a round being fired; the gun was point blank to the mattress. Obviously this should never happen, this was a mistake. I failed my first check, (visual inspection; not seeing the loaded mag through the ejection port), and my second check, dropping the hammer, did what I hoped it would should my first check fail.

The above is arguing semantics, but the bottom line is I made a mistake, and I implemented redundant safety checks which prevented something bad from coming this mistake. I have learned from this mistake and may possibly alter my safety procedures if I find something else that is more efficient or safer.

I keep this pistol with a loaded magazine-empty chamber in the car with me, or in my night stand when i sleep. This gun is handled very often, and since I don't use a holster, I don't feel comfortable keeping one in the chamber. Every time I stow the gun, I remove the magazine, press check, dry fire, then reinsert the magazine.

[keyframe]

Ok, this has to be asked. What did your wife say?

Bad words aren't usually nice to post on forums......

Seriously though, she was pretty shocked, but got over it quick. She is understanding, thank god! Besides, I think she wants a new mattress anyway

[flintknapper]

Press Check Junkie. Never heard of that title but it fits here too. As sure as I make sure one is clear when I pick it up or it is handed to me, I also press check anything I holster up that has been out of my site.
Same thing every time gentlemen.

Jbirds (Jason) was the first to use that expression to describe his habit. I found it a humorous "label" and promptly stole from him.

I "press check" more often than the average Joe, so the term applies to me too.

LT, I don't know...but I would hazard a guess.. that you haven't had any AD/ND's either, or very few?

If so, then the practice must be working for you as well.

[45 4 life]

Am I actually reading that many of you dry fire your weapons when you unload. Then you keep your weapons in the house without a round in the chamber?
What is with all of this pulling the trigger.

I do dry fire the glock when it is time for cleaning, but that is it, and that is only because it is required for disassembly. Anyother time I pull the trigger I fully expect to here a loud bang, and I will be very disappointed if I do not.

I am really interested in those of you that carry with a round chambered and then remove the chambered round when you arrive home. What makes you do this?

[57Coastie]

While perhaps not 100% responsive to your question 45, I can give you one reason why I often dry fire one or the other of my two carry weapons at home after safely unloading, and then checking again -- to practice maintaining or improving my trigger control and grip. I have found that this is particularly valuable using my lasers. Of course depending upon the weapon I use snap caps when appropriate.

Then I reload the weapon and put it either in my pocket or on my bedside table, depending on the time of day (or night). Only rarely do I have both carry weapons unloaded at the same time, not even when they are being cleaned, one at a time. As a matter of fact I cannot remember when I might have last had them both unloaded at the same time at home.

Having said this, I recognize the real and apparent danger of becoming confused about the current status of a particular weapon, so as a result I am particularly careful, if not obsessive, about following the proper safety practices at all times.

All the best,

Jim

[57Coastie]

I keep this pistol with a loaded magazine-empty chamber in the car with me, or in my night stand when I sleep. This gun is handled very often, and since I don't use a holster, I don't feel comfortable keeping one in the chamber. Every time I stow the gun, I remove the magazine, press check, dry fire, then reinsert the magazine.

I missed this observation of yours, Keyframe, the first time around, then when I caught it the second time it really struck home. I am an old guy who carried the M1911 in the service, cocked and locked, and I have owned, and routinely practice with, my own genuine example (vintage 1916-17) of John Browning's best for more than 50 years. I, too, must CCW in my pocket, as my standard shorts and T-shirt, along with my well-fed tummy, do not lend themselves to any out-of-the-pocket holster I have yet discovered, nor, I am sad to say, can I successfully conceal my M1911 in the pocket of my shorts (and if I could it would probably pull them down to my knees).

My standard carry for years was an old faithful S&W Airweight .38. No problem in a pocket. Its great advantage was that I would always carry it -- the ultimate test of a good carry weapon. I would literally forget at times that it was in my pocket.

Just a few days ago I weakened, and with some embarrassment joined, at least to some extent, the "plastic gun" generation -- which I had teased for years for not using a "real" handgun. I purchased an XD-40 subcompact model, without an external hammer. I have now fired a couple of hundred rounds at the range, and I am quite impressed by the XD, but my many, many years with the M1911 make me very uneasy when I think of carrying a semi-automatic without an external safety.

I realize that many say that the trigger safety is equally as safe, if not more so, than the outside safety. One of these is the dealer from whom I purchased the XD, who offered to take it back unused in exchange for the newer model with the outside safety, but he convinced me to give the XD a fair chance. In fairness to his position, I must say that the 7-1/2 lb. trigger pull on the XD very closely approximates that of the Airweight with the hammer down. I am comfortable with that trigger pull and would not want a lighter pull on a carry weapon.

So I carry the XD in my pocket, but I am still uneasy with the nature of the action, and, like you, I carry it with the chamber empty.

What does the new generation say about my perceived dilemma? Am I just an old fud not willing to join the 21st century, or not? You need not bother saying that my mode of carry will delay my getting a round off in a pinch -- that is obvious.

Would appreciate any other thoughts our readers might offer.

Jim

[WildBill]

What does the new generation say about my perceived dilemma? Am I just an old fud not willing to join the 21st century, or not? You need not bother saying that my mode of carry will delay my getting a round off in a pinch -- that is obvious. Would appreciate any other thoughts our readers might offer. Jim

I think you should listen to the "old generation" rather than the new. Instead, listen to an "old fud" who used to think like you. I am new [less than one year] to concealed carry. Over 30+ years of firearm and hunter safety training taught me to keep the ammo separate from the gun, safety on, don't keep a round in the chamber, etc.

After attending the CHL training, workshops at the Texas CHL Forum Day and a couple other courses I have "seen the light." It surprised me that it didn't take very long to make the transition. Do your "Wally Walk" and just start to carry. It's just a matter of changing your comfort zone. Now I wouldn't even consider NOT carrying "locked and loaded."

Now I just have to get used to the idea of plastic guns.

[57Coastie]

WildBill says, Now I wouldn't even consider NOT carrying "locked and loaded."

Tks, Bill. I certainly agree with what you say when applied to the M1911. On duty I carried mine locked and loaded, as generally required when your weapon might be instantly needed with no warning -- slide closed, hammer fully cocked, safety on, live round in the chamber, fully charged magazine in the well -- made ready for instant use with a movement of your thumb. (I recognize that some military commands, and some LEO organizations, ordained differently, and this has been debated to death in other forums, but to me, having an M1911 "locked and loaded" has only one definition.)

My mental problem with my new plastic gun is just that -- a mental problem (or mental block, if you prefer). With the M1911 locked and loaded one has to make two movements to fire the weapon -- first with the thumb to take the safety off, and then with the trigger finger. With the counterpart of the M1911's safety being located in the middle of a split trigger, with my XD I only have to make one movement -- the trigger finger. I have tried to mentally break that one movement down into two, releasing the safety with the initial movement of the trigger finger, and then pulling the trigger with the last part of the movement of the trigger finger, but I am still uncomfortable with it. In the final analysis it is just one movement of the trigger finger.

In contrast to the M1911, my XD is locked and loaded with slide closed, live round in chamber, and fully charged magazine in the well. The missing elements as compared with the M1911 are what bother me enough to cause me to carry without the live round in the chamber, necessitating racking the slide to come to the ready state. I will just have to keep trying to overcome my mental block. Perhaps with more range time I will see the light. BTW, I find it much more difficult to rack the slide of my XD than doing so with my M1911, due both to its being so tight and its small size, and the risk of pointing the weapon in an improper direction while doing so is a real concern. This is certainly an argument favoring my doing things "the modern way."

The question remains, however -- is the XD when locked and loaded more safe, less safe, or equally as safe as a locked and loaded M1911? Or is that just a dumb question?

Thanks for the help, Bill,

Jim

[Keith B]

....... I have tried to mentally break that one movement down into two, releasing the safety with the initial movement of the trigger finger, and then pulling the trigger with the last part of the movement of the trigger finger, but I am still uncomfortable with it. In the final analysis it is just one movement of the trigger finger.....

Jim,

Sounds like you need to upgrade to the new XD Service Models with the thumb safety. That would get you back in your comfort zone.

[seamusTX]

With the M1911 locked and loaded one has to make two movements to fire the weapon -- first with the thumb to take the safety off, and then with the trigger finger. With the counterpart of the M1911's safety being located in the middle of a split trigger, with my XD I only have to make one movement -- the trigger finger.

Every weapon is exactly as safe as the user makes it.

There's no question that the 1911 has more safety mechanisms: the external safety, firing pin disconnect, and grip safety, plus maybe some more like a magazine disconnect.

Double-action pistols and revolvers typically have only the firing pin disconnect. (I know there are exceptions.)

So, as you say, safety with a double-action weapon comes down to not pulling the trigger except when you intend to fire.

I initially had some anxiety about carrying, and I did everything I could with an unloaded pistol to assure myself that the trigger could not be pulled by accident. That included actually trying to pull the trigger by having a corner of my shirt inside the trigger guard while holstering.

Now I'm completely comfortable with carrying a loaded double-action pistol. However, I always use a holster that covers the trigger.

- Jim

[WildBill]

WildBill says, Now I wouldn't even consider NOT carrying "locked and loaded."

Tks, Bill. I certainly agree with what you say when applied to the M1911. The question remains, however -- is the XD when locked and loaded more safe, less safe, or equally as safe as a locked and loaded M1911? Or is that just a dumb question? Thanks for the help, Bill, Jim

Not a dumb question, but maybe one that doesn't have a definitive answer. That's like asking if a revolver is safer than an automatic.

I don't carry an M1911. I have a Sphinx AT-380 and a Sig P239 DAK. I carry both with a round in the chamber. The Sphinx has a manual safety, but I DO NOT EVER use it. [Note the European version doesn't have a manual safey]. My philosophy is to use the manual safety all the time or never use it. I choose never. Just one more thing that I don't have to worry about.

The P239 DAK doesn't have a safety either and I wouldn't want one. Both of these handguns have a heavy enough double action trigger that I don't worry about an AD. Just keep the ol' booger hook off the bang switch.

[45 4 life]

Everyone has made excellent points regarding "state of readiness" while you are carrying a firearm.

My opinion is that you carry only what you are comfortable with, having the weapon ready to fire, using one hand only. There are to many things that could force you into the situation of only having one hand and it may not be your strong hand.

Fighting the BG has caused a injury.
Injury from auto accident, then the situation gets out of hand.
You are engaged with the BG and can only access your weapon with a single hand.
You are using one hand/arm to move an innocent party or loved one out of the line of fire.
You are so close to the BG that he can prevent you from racking the slide, or possible take the firearm from you.

I can spend all day coming up with situations that would cause someone grief if they were reguired to draw and rack the slide before engaging the threat.
Remember what the goal of a CHLer is. Stay concealed until the moment you believe the threat of bodily harm or death is imminent. Keep surprise on your side, idealy you would draw and have a site picture before the threat knows what has happened.

With that in mind, select your carry weapon based on your own level of comfort. My own thoughts is that there has never been a safer auto loader produced than the 1911 carried cocked and locked. With a little practice the thumb safety become as routine as trigger finger placement. When I finally went with a plastic model (Glock 36) for summer concealment I to was apprehensive about having a round chambered while carrying. Although my holster does cover the trigger it just appeared to easy to snag it on something and have a AD. I carried the thing around the house unloaded for days, in the holster, draw, reholster, different cover shirts, jackets, vest before I convinced myself it was safe. Just like shooting handling a handgun requires practice to be comfortable and confident.