My friend was mugged

[dolomiti]

I have no doubt that I would have pulled my wallet out and dropped it at his feet as I drew and opened fire on him. Since it didn't happen to me, we can't say how it would have turned out for me, but one of us would have been getting shot.

That is a good way to turn up the heat quickly.

[uudfourty]

That scenario has been pretty well worked-out.
Here's another real-world one. I've often thought about how I would handle this.
Like in the original example, prevention and situational awareness are key here.

This happened to a friend of mine about a year ago in a Wal-Mart parking lot at around 2:00AM.

He parked his car.
As soon as his car door closed, unseen BG told him to freeze or he'd blow him away.
My friend froze, of course.
BG was behind him. He never saw him.
BG told him to lay down on the ground beside his car and spread his arms and legs.
Friend complied.

BG closed the distance to very, very close behind him and gave him orders.
"Take your right hand and slowly pull everything out of your front right pocket.... now the back pocket.... Now take your left hand and take everything out of your front left.... now the back pocket...."

BG took what he wanted and told my friend, "Count to 100. Don't get up, don't move, don't yell. My friends are watching you, and if you don't wait for the full 100, we have your driver's license; we will find you and kill you."

My friend complied.

So far as I can tell, there is absolutely zero way out of this situation. Preventing it is the only way to win this one.

Now, for all we know, BG had a snickers bar instead of a Glock. And there were no other friends. Nothing was certain.

My guess is that BG was alone and unarmed.
But is that a theory worth testing?

[KD5NRH]

My guess is that BG was alone and unarmed.
But is that a theory worth testing?

He got lucky. That doesn't mean the theory that all armed robbers are a trustworthy sort and won't kill you anyway is worth testing, either.

[redoregon]

I keep thinking about the tactic of throwing the wallet on the ground as a diversionary tactic (cause that was one of my first ideas). The Achilles Heel of that strategy, however, would be if the robber then said, "Pick it up," instead of getting it himself.

If the situation arises, drop it at his feet. If he tells you to pick it up, do so... and then ram it into his crotch with enough force to reach his liver.

[SlowDave]

A guy with a gun in hand ALWAYS beats the fastest draw

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefense ... 8117493932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefense ... 0124821434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefense ... 4646435945" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that's just the month-to-date (and it's only the 6th now) of people successfully out-draw-and-shooting a drawn gun.

That's a bit weak, imho. Coming from another room with a drawn weapon and confronting criminals who are focused on other victims is not beating a drawn gun with your draw. And getting an opportunity when the BG is moving room to room to get your gun and attack him is also not it. And I'm not saying it's never happened. People also live through being hit by lightning, but I don't like those odds and prefer not to take them if I don't have to. You are welcome to do your own thing in that situation, I'm just stating what (I think) I'll do.

[SlowDave]

I have considered the same and determined the following:
1. I won't shoot someone to retain personal property (though I may threaten)
2. I won't draw on someone who is holding a gun on me, ever.

So what you are saying is that you will allow a perp to take your property and your gun and most probably shoot you with your own gun?

When did I say I'd let him take my gun? I'd let him take my property, all $3 I normally carry and all the cards I can call in 5 minutes later. Concealed is concealed. If he went to frisk me or in some other way was able to determine I had a gun and attempted to take it, I'd have to take some action, as at that point, the risk to my life has risen to the point that I am more willing to risk the possibility/likelihood of getting shot to maintain my weapon. If he turned or got distracted sufficiently for me to draw with reasonable likelihood of winning, I'd take it. But not while he's standing there focused on me with a gun aimed.

Drawing a gun on someone who is within 10 ft and already aimed at me and focused on me seems like a shortcut to the morgue to me. Okay, I might be "lucky" and go to the hospital and live through it, maybe paralyzed or something. I'd give up the $3 and credit cards and the 1% chance I would come out the winner if I drew in that situation.

[snorri]

Everybody should know their limitations, but never assume your limitations are the same as the other guy.

[SlowDave]

I have considered the same and determined the following:
1. I won't shoot someone to retain personal property (though I may threaten)
2. I won't draw on someone who is holding a gun on me, ever.

If I am absolutely convinced that the person holding a gun on me intends to use it, what do I have to lose by drawing?

Nothing.

When are you ever "absolutely convinced" that the BG intends to shoot you? If I knew for a fact the guy was going to shoot me, well of course I'd take a shot, no matter how crappy the odds. Since I'd know the odds of NOT drawing are 100% that I'm getting shot. I am hypothesizing that the odds of getting shot during a mugging if I don't draw are LESS THAN 100%. Of course, I will increase those odds by a sizable amount when I bring a gun into the situation. Almost for sure at that point, someone's getting shot. Maybe me, maybe BG, maybe both... Lots of people get mugged and are later hole-free. I'm not saying it's a sure thing, and I'd rather avoid the situation, have a chance while the guy is distracted, etc., etc. But I'm saying, I don't want to try and outdraw a guy for $3 and the (my guess) < 20% chance that he'll shoot me after getting my wallet.

I do like the idea of looking over their shoulder and yelling "POLICE" though. I'm afraid if I had a mugger in a bad mood and I threw my wallet on the ground, he might just shoot me at that point to avoid any chance of me trying something while he bent down. If he was smart (unlikely), he'd suspect something at that point, and might just take a pre-emptive shot at me. Probably not, but... might work, might not.

[jsimmons]

Thanks for all the insight so far. Keep it coming!

To answer some questions, my friend was unarmed due to his personal philosophy, but more importantly his ineligibility (immigration status). The robbery happened in Houston near Reliant Stadium at night.

I keep thinking about the tactic of throwing the wallet on the ground as a diversionary tactic (cause that was one of my first ideas). The Achilles Heel of that strategy, however, would be if the robber then said, "Pick it up," instead of getting it himself.

If he's the only one showing a piece, you can probably assume he's the only one that's got one (teams of muggers like to show off, and if they aren't, they're probably unarmed, or think you're an easy mark).

First you should toss it in front of you a couple of feet, and about a foot towards your strong side. When/if he tells you to pick it up, he'll probably concentrating on the hand you're using to pick up the wallet. So, use your weak side hand to pick it up, and while bending over, draw from your strong side and fire. Two rounds center of mass in quick succession, and then take out as many of the others as you can. Don't forget to kick the dropped pistol out of the dead guy's reach (in case he ain't dead - yet).

On the other hand, he could tell one of his cohorts to retrieve it. Chances are pretty good that he's also going to glance down to observe the retrieval process. Again, that's an opportunity to draw/shoot.

Oh yeah, even if you wait until they're retreating, it's legal in Texas to use deadly force to recover stolen property. Personally, if they drew a gun/knife/weapon on me while they demanded my property, that would obviate the need to use deadly force to recover said property. Some of you have stated that personal property isn't worth killing someone for. I put it to you this way - the criminal already decided decided that the personal property was worth dying for (when he pulled a weapon), so if I can, I'll oblige him.

[jsimmons]

That scenario has been pretty well worked-out.
Here's another real-world one. I've often thought about how I would handle this.
Like in the original example, prevention and situational awareness are key here.

This happened to a friend of mine about a year ago in a Wal-Mart parking lot at around 2:00AM.

He parked his car.
As soon as his car door closed, unseen BG told him to freeze or he'd blow him away.
My friend froze, of course.
BG was behind him. He never saw him.
BG told him to lay down on the ground beside his car and spread his arms and legs.
Friend complied.

BG closed the distance to very, very close behind him and gave him orders.
"Take your right hand and slowly pull everything out of your front right pocket.... now the back pocket.... Now take your left hand and take everything out of your front left.... now the back pocket...."

BG took what he wanted and told my friend, "Count to 100. Don't get up, don't move, don't yell. My friends are watching you, and if you don't wait for the full 100, we have your driver's license; we will find you and kill you."

My friend complied.

So far as I can tell, there is absolutely zero way out of this situation. Preventing it is the only way to win this one.

Now, for all we know, BG had a snickers bar instead of a Glock. And there were no other friends. Nothing was certain.

My guess is that BG was alone and unarmed.
But is that a theory worth testing?

Solution - don't go to Wal-Mart at 2am. If you simply must do that, you have to take extra precautions. Cruise the lot a take note of individuals sitting in cars. Avoid parking near other cars - the parking lot is probably pretty empty at 2am, so you can park your car in such a way as to not afford a hiding place for the "unseen" bad guy. When exiting the store, scan. Did someone park in unreasonably close proximity to your car? Are people present that appear to be "hanging out". If you're concerned, stay in the store for a few extra minutes, and give the environment some time to reveal itself. Again, going to Wal-Mart (or anywhere else for that matter) at 2am is not advised. The dark is where the bad guys live.

[C-dub]

When a BG is already holding a gun on you what is the difference between complying up to the point of the BG discovering you have a weapon and trying to take it? It seems that many have stated they would then resist to avoid being shot with their own gun. What's the difference which gun you are shot with? Resist resist resist!!! I think the only time I might not resist is if another person were holding also holding a weapon to my wife or daughter. I won't know for sure until, God forbid, I'm ever in that situation. And that's the rub. I pray that I never am and try to avoid it at all times by being aware of my surroundings and avoid situations when the hair on the back of my neck stands up.

Haven't there been enough examples that prove resistance is not futile and successful more often than not? Again, one will never know until it happens to them.

[KD5NRH]

Solution - don't go to Wal-Mart at 2am.

Wait until 3, when the bar rush has finished clearing out. Nothing makes a bad guy stand out like an empty parking lot...if you bother to look.

I've walked across Dallas at all of these "bad" times, and the worst that happened was some guy screeching up to hand me a flyer for a KKK rally. I've had a mugging attempt and countless "interviews" at "decent" hours. The last time we had vehicle burglaries at work, they happened at 3PM.

Turn on a scanner for 24 hours and really listen to it: a lot more bad stuff happens during the day than at night. Outside of the bar rush and the occasional delayed DUI from people partying after the bars close, it's pretty dead from midnight to 6AM.

[C-dub]

Turn on a scanner for 24 hours and really listen to it: a lot more bad stuff happens during the day than at night.

Is it the quantity or quality?

[KD5NRH]

Turn on a scanner for 24 hours and really listen to it: a lot more bad stuff happens during the day than at night.

Is it the quantity or quality?

The late-night and early-morning stuff is dominated by DUIs (or suspected DUIs) and DUI-related wrecks, domestic violence and parties getting out of hand. Stay sober, watch the other drivers and avoid wild parties, and you'll be fine. During the day and evening is when most of the robberies and non-domestic assaults seem to happen.

Remember, the bad guys have to sleep sometime too. The ones that are out late at night are looking for easy pickings like unlocked doors or valuables in plain sight in cars.