robbed wasn't armed

[seamusTX]

In all fairness, you can't treat everyone you meet in a densely populated city as a hostile. You can easily pass three or four people per minute walking in Galveston. In New York, make that three or four hundred.

Some of these sociopathic criminals are quite good at seeming friendly and putting an honest person off his guard.

I would rather have a stranger scowl at me and keep walking than try to act friendly, but that's just me.

- Jim

[mrcharlie]

Jim,
Can't say I see the relevance of your comment about crack dealers. That alley is used day and night by all kinds of people, men and women, for all different reasons, This incident is the ONLY violent incident I'm aware of in the 4 years I have lived there.

What is the point of your "crack dealer" comment?
Charlie

[baldeagle]

I am not sure I remember the consensus on deadly force for this type of attack. This is probably good to go since it is behind Charlie's house. But, it was day time. And, what if it was a different location. I don't know if we can answer this question in this same thread without drifting but do we believe deadly force would be justified here?

I don't think there's any question that, when the BG "backed [him] into the alcove", he would have been justified in using deadly force. First, it was already aggravated robbery, because the BG used deadly force to begin with. Once the BG started backing him into the alcove, the necessary elements of the law had been met to justify the use of deadly force again.

§ 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.31;
(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation
would not have retreated; and
(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself against the other's use or
attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

[seamusTX]

Jim, Can't say I see the relevance of your comment about crack dealers.

I did not mean to imply that you were involved in anything nefarious. I apologize for any such implication.

I should have kept my mouth shut, so to speak.

This is a relatively high-crime area. The corner of 35th and N was notorious from the 1990s until maybe 2008, though it has been cleaned up. We had two crack houses operating within 1,000 feet of our home, which the police seemed powerless to do anything about when everyone else knew what they were (they eventually were shut down).

Illegal drug activity attracts other criminal activity. Criminals tend to work close to home, as this particular robber did.

- Jim

[mrcharlie]

Jim,
Not much happening in the alley. In hindsight, one mistake I made was to relax 'cause the site was so familiar to me. It is interesting to speculate as to when in this encounter would the use of deadly force by me be legal. The definition of aggravated assault helps a lot but still not clear how long to wait before shooting the guy.
cheers

[seamusTX]

In terms of strategy and tactics, I try to avoid situations where a stranger could turn a "friendly handshake" into an assault within a second, which it sounds like happened to you.

When you back away from someone and he positively advances on you, you know he is up to no good. Even if you are not justified in the use of force at that point, you can verbally warn him to disengage. If he keeps coming, ....

I have backed away from and warned off men who then acted offended. Maybe they just wanted to be friendly. Maybe they wanted to sell me insurance. Maybe they wanted to invite me to Bible study. I don't know. But I haven't been mugged since the 1970s.

I am not a lawyer, Massad Ayoob, or Col. Cooper.

- Jim

[C-dub]

Welcome Charlie.

I'm very glad that you're okay. Please, let us know how your class goes if you get to take one.

Be careful out there.

[mrcharlie]

and a little more info on the BG

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... ss-twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

poorly written, factually faulty article but it makes me feel even "luckier" to have come out of the encounter as well as I did.

I am a careful and savvy guy, I've survived a lot of sketchy situations over the years, but in this example, the survival wasn't because of anything I did. I'm not tooting my horn, just pointing out that S*&% happens and can happen to any of us. There's always room for improvement, more awareness, more skill and ability to handle the situation.

Thanks for all the helpful hints, kind words and good wishes. This forum rocks!

Charlie

[dubya]

"and a little more info on the BG"



Hats off to you Charlie!

[Hoi Polloi]

Jim,
Not much happening in the alley. In hindsight, one mistake I made was to relax 'cause the site was so familiar to me. It is interesting to speculate as to when in this encounter would the use of deadly force by me be legal. The definition of aggravated assault helps a lot but still not clear how long to wait before shooting the guy.
cheers

As a woman, I stay in Condition Yellow most always. In this situation of being alone in an alley with a large man I didn't recognize coming toward me, I would have moved to orange solely from his presence, deliberately crossed to the opposite side of the alley from him (and if I had a CHL, I would discretely put my hand on the weapon ready to draw), watched him closely and purposefully, and checked behind me as and after he was passing. When you look like you know what's up and you are ready, most criminals will move on to someone they can catch off guard. Most of this type of criminal are opportunistic feeders. They go where it is easy. By being alert, crossing the street, standing tall and confidently, watching him, and forming a plan of action, a criminal doesn't know what he's walking into and is less likely to choose you. And if he does choose you, you're more likely to respond appropriately since you've already thought it out and committed to acting.

While the comment about passing hundreds in New York is true, there's no comparison to being alone in an alley in the middle of the day when most are at work, and on top of that with being older and not having any physical advantages over the guy.

I understand you to have said that you are a 68 year old man and out of nowhere in an isolated location, you were grabbed from behind, spun around, and punched so hard that you landed on the ground with your attacker who was half your age still standing over you. If I were in your shoes, I'd say you were justified in drawing and/or using deadly force at that point. He exerted deadly force by punching you in the head, the threat continued, you had no clear or safe escape, and you had reason to fear for your life. That's reason enough. If you thought of it, you could also be fearful of an imminent robbery, which is justification enough. When he asked for money or showed signs of it being a robbery, you were again justified because an aggravated robbery was taking place. When he told you to back into the alcove, you could again say that you feared that his intent was to kill you there, it was in the commission of an aggravated robbery, and your health and age didn't lead you to believe you had a physical advantage in trying to outrun him. Only after you ran and he split in the other direction would I say you were no longer justified. IANAL.

[rdcrags]

but I recently acquired a S&W J framed .357 magnum revolver. It fits in my front pocket with no trouble, and it is made out of Scandium (an ultra lightweight metal with properties similar to Titanium) and it weighs next to nothing. It may only hold 5 rounds, but it is 5 rounds of full house .357.

Me, too. Only it's titanium and a 38, and I've had it since they came out.

TX CHL 1997
CO CHP 2005

[Kevinf2349]

I just can't help but wonder if this 'Pillar of Society' was armed when he did this cowardly act. The report says that he had a gun when he held the store up. Very scary.

I am so glad the OP came through it relatively OK.

[mrcharlie]

thanks Hoi Polloi......very clear & helpful analysis. More alert (most accidents occur close to home, too familiar, stay at "yellow" even when you're on familiar turf). Once he had hit me and knocked me down I was in big trouble, even if I had been armed it would have been tricky, with him hovering over me, to draw and get off a shot. Maybe the class I'[m looking for will teach me "how to create space in adverse conditions". BTW, I took the CHL course with Tom Estep and would love to take a "how to" course from him. His CHL course was first rate (and I got the license right away).
cheers

[baldeagle]

charlie, I'm 62, not that much younger than you. At our age, we have to think of ourselves as targets, because that's the reality. Our age and infirmities attract scumbags who figure we are easy marks. So, we have to learn to stay in yellow all the time and stay armed all the time. It's not easy for me, because I've never had a situation like yours occur to me. The places I frequent and the things I do routinely are in "safe" environments. So, I find myself vacillating between carrying and not carrying (I don't have my license yet), but I know in my heart that I need to carry all the time and I need to practice regularly. I'm getting the practice part down, because I find that enjoyable, but I still feel silly carrying a weapon in my home.

It's unfortunate that this is what our world has come to, but at least we have our rights somewhat intact so that we can carry a weapon to defend ourselves and our loved ones.

BTW, I think hoi polloi's analysis was spot on. The only issue I can see is where you would have felt comfortable drawing and firing. If you've never drawn and fired your gun while lying on your back, you might be hesitant to draw from that position, and that could have been fatal. You can practice that from home with an unloaded weapon. And now that you've gotten your wakeup call (and thank God you weren't severely injured or killed!), you have the motivation to work at it.

[seamusTX]

If a strong, determined man lays hands on you, he pretty much owns you. We can see this in the case of police officers who are assaulted and lose their weapon to the assailant.

In this case, the "alleged suspect" was a felon with a dozen years in prison where he probably learned to take care of himself bare-handed.

My number one goal is be somewhere else when the fight is scheduled to start, and number two, to avoid being grabbed. Personally, I would rather take my chances on evading a guy with a knife or handgun who didn't really know how to use it.

- Jim