No-Win Situation: I'll mind my own business!

[Dirty Bob]

Scary incident on Monday, May 30th:

I was walking home from my mother-in-law's house, where I was helping out by changing out a hose bib. I had a "Jack Bauer bag" with me, with a few wrenches, a screwdriver, teflon tape, etc. Holstered in appendix position was a Kel-Tec P-11 in a Galco "USA" IWB holster, and I had a P-32 in my back pocket in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster.

As I rounded a corner about 1/2 block from home, I saw three young men in a front yard, in some kind of very animated discussion. Let's call them Yellow Shirt, Gray Shirt and Black Shirt. I was across the street and about 1-2 houses away.

Yellow Shirt turns to me and yells, "Sir, please call the police." At that point it got ugly, with a 2-on-1 fight that went into a side yard. I got on the phone and told police dispatch of a 2-on-1 assault, along with descriptions and the address.

Some neighbors were trying to intervene at this point, but I saw no good reason to get closer to a violent situation that I didn't understand.

I was backing off to a further distance when one of the two grabbed a garden hose, whipped it in a loop around YS' neck and began strangling him. This was the point where I felt an urge to intervene. I felt like I couldn't watch a murder take place in front of me. I was starting forward when one of the neighbors started hollering at the strangler and for some reason the two guys let go and backed off for a moment. YS took advantage of this and jumped into a car that was parked there and sped away. I was still on the phone with the dispatcher and gave the plate number and description.

Several neighbors had moved into the situation by this point, and the GS and bull were telling their side. I heard "...slice the fat off that <deleted>." yelled by one of them. I decided I was better off away from there and went home.

After reaching home, I called the dispatch to clarify one point, and to give my name and address. At that moment, two units flew down our street and whipped around the corner to the scene of the assault.

I think I did OK, in that I tried to be a good witness and stayed out of the situation. What spooks me is that a situation like the attempted strangulation looks like a no-win for a person like me. I had absolutely no idea what was going on, but there I was, tempted to pull a gun on the two guys strangling YS.

I've been thinking of it quite a bit, and the thing that keeps coming back to me is: "Intervene, and you own the results." For all I know, YS is a pedophile who was caught in the act by the other two, or perhaps they're all in the same family and this is just one of their many drunken brawls. It's entirely possible that I could have seen YS take the stand at my murder trial, to testify about how the three of them were just clowning around, when this maniac with a pistol walked up and pulled a gun, then shot his cousin.

I think my steps should have been:
1. Move to cover
2. Call police
3. Stay put long enough to be a good witness
4. Leave when YS sped away in his car

I will mind my own business, I will mind my own business, I will mind my own business.

Keeping my nose out of the lives of others,
Dirty Bob

[MoJo]

You did the right thing. BE A GOOD WITNESS! CHLs aren't cops or vigilantes if the one who was being strangled got away there was no need for further intervention on your part.

[MasterOfNone]

This is a good reminder that in a third-party situation, unless we are very close to the situation, we will rarely know all the facts and must be very careful before jumping in. For all you know, yellow shirt may have been the bad guy.

[LikesShinyThings]

I agree that you did the right thing. You are so correct that if you get involved you own the result. Far better to be a good witness.

Still, standing by watching a man, any man, get strangled by two others - that would be a very hard one to swallow. I don't envy you having to see this, and I'm glad nobody died in the situation you experienced. Definitely not a fun encounter, no matter how you cut it.

[kjolly]

Sounds to me as you did right plus I have some serious doubts of a garden hose being able to applt enough pressure to strangle someone.
It was not life and death and more importantly it was not your fight. Stay safe.

[Oldgringo]

Good Job! As others have said, a CHL is not a Batman license.

For the record, I want a garden hose wrapped around my neck just about as badly as I want to get shot with one of those puny little 9mm's, whether it be parabellum or .380 acp.

[Purplehood]

I wasn't there, but I suspect that if I were watching someone trying to choke someone right in front of me, I may have been sorely tempted to intervene.

[Keith B]

Sounds to me as you did right plus I have some serious doubts of a garden hose being able to applt enough pressure to strangle someone.
It was not life and death and more importantly it was not your fight. Stay safe.

Sure you can. This was taken from here http://www.journalwatchdog.com/crime/executed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crime: In the early morning hours of April 12, 1978, cousins John Arnold and John Plath, in their early twenties, along with their respective eleven-year-old and seventeen-year-old girlfriends, Carol Ullman and Cindy Sheets, borrowed a friend's car and went looking for wild mushrooms in Beaufort County. They encountered farm worker Betty Gardner as she walked along the side of the road. Gardner was alternately sexually assaulted, urinated on, stomped, beaten with a belt, hit with a jagged bottle, stabbed with a knife, and choked with a garden hose. All four persons at one time or another participated in physically assaulting Gardner. Testimony also indicated Arnold dragged Gardner into the woods to complete her murder, which he did by strangling her with the garden hose, getting leverage by putting his foot on her.

[v-rog]

OK, I'm moving my garden hoses from outside the house to my garage and I am registering them as deadly waepons.

[Keith B]

It doesn't matter how they stragle you, you are 'hosed' no matter.

[MasterOfNone]

Crime: In the early morning hours of April 12, 1978, cousins John Arnold and John Plath, in their early twenties, along with their respective eleven-year-old and seventeen-year-old girlfriends, Carol Ullman and Cindy Sheets, borrowed a friend's car and went looking for wild mushrooms in Beaufort County. They encountered farm worker Betty Gardner as she walked along the side of the road. Gardner was alternately sexually assaulted, urinated on, stomped, beaten with a belt, hit with a jagged bottle, stabbed with a knife, and choked with a garden hose. All four persons at one time or another participated in physically assaulting Gardner. Testimony also indicated Arnold dragged Gardner into the woods to complete her murder, which he did by strangling her with the garden hose, getting leverage by putting his foot on her.

Gardner strangled with a garden hose? What are the odds?

[johnson0317]

It sounds like you did the right thing...be a good witness, get good information. The only thing that really sticks out is the strangling with the garden hose. True, the guy getting strangled may have been the bad guy who had just done something wrong...but it still amounts to murder if the guy dies. I don't think the guy doing the strangling was doing it in self-defense. There is no simple answer to it, I guess. Be weird if the guy died and you found out later he was the innocent party.

Glad it wasn't me having to make the fast decisions. Thanks for posting it so we can have another scenario to dwell on.

RJ

[The Annoyed Man]

You did the right thing. BE A GOOD WITNESS! CHLs aren't cops or vigilantes if the one who was being strangled got away there was no need for further intervention on your part.

I agree........but what if he hadn't gotten away? I know that I have absolutely no idea why the other two were assaulting YS, but murder is murder, even if you're murdering a pedophile. If he had not gotten away, I would find it almost impossible not to intervene—even though it stinks, and even though he may have deserved it, and even though I own the results of intervening, and even though it is a lose/lose situation. Why? Because I would hope that someone would do it for me.

Am I wrong?

[papajohn1964]

[quote="Dirty Bob"]Scary incident on Monday, May 30th:

Yellow Shirt turns to me and yells, "Sir, please call the police." At that point it got ugly, with a 2-on-1 fight that went into a side yard. I got on the phone and told police dispatch of a 2-on-1 assault, along with descriptions and the address.


You did a good job but I'm not sure that the BG would be the one asking you to call the police.

[The Annoyed Man]

Scary incident on Monday, May 30th:

Yellow Shirt turns to me and yells, "Sir, please call the police." At that point it got ugly, with a 2-on-1 fight that went into a side yard. I got on the phone and told police dispatch of a 2-on-1 assault, along with descriptions and the address.

You did a good job but I'm not sure that the BG would be the one asking you to call the police.

Even a bad guy will call for the police if it means self-preservation. I was living in Los Angeles when Richard Ramirez—the "Night Stalker"—went on his killing spree which culminated with his being severely beaten by an angry mob who would have killed him if police hadn't arrived and saved his life. He didn't call them, but I'll bet he was mighty glad they showed up. Sadly, he is still awaiting execution on California's Death Row in San Quentin. Texas would have fast-tracked him and put the animal down. But that said, we don't get to make that judgement as individuals. We're a nation of laws, and murder is murder, even if the victim is himself a murderer/pedophile/rapist/whatever. Even back in "eye-for-an-eye" biblical times, the accused was to be brought before a judge and could not be convicted on the testimony of just one witness—and could not have death by stoning or whatever means imposed without a conviction rendered by a judge.

Since we cannot possibly know if Yellow Shirt was innocent, or simply got caught doing something wrong, the question of his guilt or innocence cannot be a part of the calculus if we are deciding whether or not to intervene. Like I said, it stinks; but murder is murder, and I would have a very hard time just witnessing and reporting a murder without intervening to prevent it if I possibly could. I'm not saying that I would necessarily do it, I'm just saying that the urge to intervene would be very powerful, and there would have to be some very clear cut reasons for NOT intervening.

I have to sleep at night.