Scenario Question

[dihappy]

So you inadvertantly cut someone off, or gave someone a wrong look on the road.

The meathead comes to your window, lets say your window is down, and begins making his intentions known to you.

Youve got your hand on your 1911 (or glock for you "other" folks) and out of sight, when all of a sudden the idiot pulls a knife, he doesnt reach in the vehicle, but he pulls it and continues talking smack about how you disrespected him.

Now you are doing the right thing and apologizing, but how do you know this nut isnt going to swiftly stab at you? Do you fire? You cant drive off as you are between cars, do you try and hope you can raise the window before he can do anything?

I think i would try to raise the window and if he tried something, then pull my gun.

[agbullet2k1]

I've always heard that anyone threatening you with a knife within 20 feet is a case for the use of force and/or deadly force. I'd think just showing a gun in this case would be enough to deter a knife guy, but I'd also be on the phone with 911 before the other calls for "man with gun" come in.

[boomerang]

So you inadvertantly cut someone off, or gave someone a wrong look on the road.

The meathead comes to your window, lets say your window is down, and begins making his intentions known to you.

That sounds like a good time to drive away. If he gets back in his car and follows me, I would call 911.

[HerbM]

I've always heard that anyone threatening you with a knife within 20 feet is a case for the use of force and/or deadly force. I'd think just showing a gun in this case would be enough to deter a knife guy, but I'd also be on the phone with 911 before the other calls for "man with gun" come in.

It's based on the Tueller Drill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill but googling for it will get you a lot more sources than just Wikipedia.

The point of the drill is that you cannot draw and fire with confidence that you will not be cut or killed. And remember that knives can be thrown so even this distance is not "safe" -- don't be certain that you can show the gun and avoid injury nor use it as an automatic "shoot" rule. Be aware of the real danger and decide what action to take based on the totality of the situation.

All this presupposes "no barrier" however. You are quite a bit safer (but remember throwing the knife is possible) if you have a car, fence, or other barrier between you and the assailant.

However, in this situation (being threatened AT you open car windows) the distance is way too close, there is a barrier, and the windows is down. (Ignoring how you let someone get that close with the windows down and why you didn't leave room in traffic to pull up.) The Tueller drill or distance really isn't much help here.

Think defuse, delay, improve the situation. If you cannot do these and deadly attack is imminent then: WIN THE FIGHT.

Get a barrier or a way to escape and get your defensive weapon to hand if you can. (Lock doors, roll up windows, CONSIDER unbuckling seat belt if you aren't going to drive off so you can slide over, draw/conceal firearm). But the way the scenario is setup my guess is the OP was imagining the attacker ALREADY at the window and that a move to draw or roll up the windows might start the fight.

You can only plan OPTIONS in such situations -- if you aren't sitting on your weapon and can draw cleanly you should be able to initiate and shoot. Most people won't do it if they have to THINK about it. Most would do it if they were certain that the attack was already underway, but then it is probably too late to escape injury totally -- if the knife is moving at your face, head, or neck. Get you arm up to cover your throat, get your weapon clear, try to get cut minimally before you stop the attack.

If the attack is not underway, try to talk calmly and get SOME rapport. (This is an entire subject but generally you cannot tell someone like this to "calm down", sometimes you can apologize, sometimes you can agree with these types, try to ask leading questions, tell him about your day just slow it down, but if one thing doesn't work try another tact, sometimes just asking what they want you to do might work with others that won't work -- if he isn't actively attacking you might improve the situations and the light will change or traffic will move in a moment.) Maybe moving forward the 3-10 feet to the next car will be enough to get the windows up and doors locked, (should have been done when you got into the car), and weapon in hand.

Think defuse, delay, improve the situation. If you cannot do these and deadly attack is imminent then: WIN THE FIGHT.

Just some thoughts. It's a tough situations possibly so best to spend most of your time trying to avoid it. Lock doors always, roll up windows unless they need to be down, watch your six in traffic so that you don't have people slip up on you, especially if you have angered someone but anytime really, leave space ahead when stopping if you can, have your firearm holstered or placed where you can draw it whil seated and belted.

Stay alert. Stay safe. Do your best to AVOID such situations.

[AEA]

Lay down over in the passenger seat pulling you legs behind you and drawing your pistol at the same time. My thought on this is that even if you get cut, it will be your lower torso and you should have a better chance at survival.

[LedJedi]

I actually had a similar situation a while back only no knife involved. Because of that, i've given this a LOT of thought. For your scenario i'll assume he's got the knife though. In my scenario it wasn't on the highway, I was boxed into a fast food drive through and some lunatic was screaming profanities at me so that's where i'll start from.

Upgrade to condition Orange as soon as he starts cursing. When he displays the knife and threatens to us it upgrades to condition Red.

In your scenario you've already apologized. I won't waste time on that any further, though it's the right thing to do imo. A diffused situation is always a better situation. I'll take the blame on something trivial if it'll make everyone happy.

I can only give you options based on what I drive so keep that in mind. I'm assuming assailant is on drivers side, to your left.

Right hand on the wheel, left hand taps my driver window control to roll it up (in my car i only have to tap it once to get it to roll all the way up, not hold it). Also tap door locks and make sure they're all locked.

I always have a pistol between the seats at condition 1.

While it's going up I switch hands and put left on the steering wheel, right hand puts hand on the 45 and disengages thumb safety. Condition 0. Also, leave the gun in it's current position (upright in a holster between the seats) for now. I wouldn't display the weapon for fear of escalating the situation. i will also undo my seatbelt to make sure i can easily and speedily move around in or out of the car as needed.

If someone is with me they will be asked to call 911, give description of the situation, location, the perp myself and advise that I am armed as well, then hang up the phone.

At the same time I begin scanning for a way to IMMEDIATELY put distance between me and the threat and take action to do so as soon as possible, breaking traffic laws if necessary so long as it doesn't put anyone else at immediate risk.

For the sake of argument lets say you're somehow boxed in and there is not a good or clear evasion. That was my scenario.

Watch the guy from inside the car. My windows are darkly tinted so he can't see what i'm doing inside anyway.

If he gets out of his car and comes over to mine and starts screaming and waving around his knife I will aim the gun with finger off the trigger while trying to both watch him and look for a chance to bolt away in the car. He can stand there and scream and yell and be a fool all he wants so long as there's a door between me and him and he's not damaging my property.

If attempts to either open my door, break my window or otherwise hit my car and I STILL cannot get away then we have a serious problem. I will defend myself and my property with extreme prejudice. I will win the fight and hopefully he'll never know what hit him.

[dihappy]

Thanks guys.
Led,
This also happened to me, but before i had CHL.

[jimlongley]

For safety's sake, and because it wouldn't save any time anyway, I would leave the safety on on my 1911 until I was actively deploying it. If you don't have confidence enough in your presentation to take the safety off while transitioning the gun from concealed to active, then you need more practice, doing otherwise is asking for a negligent discharge.

[bdickens]

If you are not boxed in, remember you are piloting a two-ton weapon. If you are, suddenly - violently - slamming the car door into the guy may buy you some gravely needed reaction time. You'll never get the window up in time; I wouldn't even try that. Besides, a lot of modern cars have pinch protection on the electric windows that causes the window motor to stop and reverse direction if the window is blocked.


Before it even comes to that, drive carefully.

[LedJedi]

Thanks guys.
Led,
This also happened to me, but before i had CHL.

Luckily, now you don't need a chl to carry in the car. You just have to be able to keep it out of sight. :)

[longhorn_92]

Thanks guys.
Led,
This also happened to me, but before i had CHL.

Unfortunately, situations like these are happening way too often. I had someone follow me for a long time - because I may have cut him off (I didn't even know I did)....Road Rage is out of hand!

[HerbM]

And maybe it is time to focus on the presuppositions of the original question: cut someone off or gave them a dirty look, and the bad guy is at the window.

If any bad guy has a weapon deployed and has chosen us a target then the odds are VERY good we have already made several mistakes. Every situation is different, and you could get targeted by the guy who was chasing a DIFFERENT white Honda Civic who is two lanes over and three cars ahead now, or just made the right turn on red and disappeared after running the idiot with the weapon off the road, (Stuff happens), so I will just speak for myself and my own actions.

I think I am a pretty good driver -- hey, I am a guy, and it's in the genes, right?

But part of my whole attitude has changed since I first contemplated a CHL. I am more likely to have a fire extinguisher, keep my cell phone charged and nearby, have emergency gear, etc. For me, just the idea of carrying serves as a constant reminder that this is only going to handle certain kinds of threats. Everybody hear who has been carrying more than a few days probably knows exactly what I mean. (You not only carry but you care enough about going it right to think about it, seek more information and like me, try to improve.)

Along with that is the admonition and actual focus, of every single defensive shoot class I have every taken, that AWARENESS, avoiding trouble, not having to take action is the best way to carry a firearm.

See the threat before the threat even knows you might make a "victim". Be somewhere else. Take action before things go too far. Etc. And ultimately, have a way to WIN the FIGHT -- and even if you cannot win, then BE IN THE FIGHT, and keep fighting until there is nothing left to do or you escape.

Ok, all thate above is obvious, but it also carries over to my driving. I am far less likely to cut someone off than before I carried. Several reasons, not least of which is I definitely don't want to shoot some nut case road rage lunatic who has a knife or a tire iron (or a pistol) just because he has decided that I didn't signal in time or made him apply the brakes, much less because I actually TRANSGRESSED on his right of way. Sure, he's an idiot (if he is doing this) but if I ran you off the road you would be a little irritated too, and chances are YOU carry a firearm, right?

So, first: driving better is the right thing to do. Second, it leads to less trouble and less paperwork. And then that whole awareness thing, 360 degree, thinking 10 seconds ahead and 100 feet or half a mile around is pretty much the same type of ATTENTION.

[i]Check your six[/i] comes from flying airplaines, dog fighting in particular, but it applies anytime someone might be on your tail too close, whether an attacker or just a bad driver who is likely to rear end you at the next stop light.

Knowing BEFORE you look in the mirror where the cars in the other lanes are -- keeping mental tabs on them, is similar to keeping mental tabs on everyone around you at Wal-Mart or walking a dark street. Watching places where cars can pull out, or anticipating what a driver who has been doing 55 in the right lane for 20 miles might suddenly decide to pull left because a tractor is moving slow up ahead, is very similar to "watching hands" or watching doorways, checking belt lines and shoulder bulges, or watching the shadows and obstacles where an attacker could hide at night.

Ok, so we all make mistakes. if you are on a major highway and the guy ahead of your suddenly decides to STOP due to a deer crossing the road you are SUPPOSED to STOP too, right? What if he, just LEAVES your lane, no break lights no signal, just he's not in front of you anymore? Same deer. But deers don't have taillights so now you are right on top of that deer. Happened to a relative of mine, totaled a slightly compact car, never ran again. The deer ran off (probably died but no one could find more than the few pieces of hide left in the car.)

So, not my fault if that happens, right? Well, maybe. I may not be at fault legally if I get rear ended, but could I have taken action that would have PREVENTED the fool following too close behind from hitting me? They odds are higher if I know where he is and have a plan already.

It just makes me a better driver. And yes, I still make mistakes, that is how I know that I am improving, I keep finding ways to pay more an better attention and keep myself safer.

I seriously doubt that I will ever need to use my firearm, even show it or threaten. I spending awful lot of time just setting up advantages and avoiding situations now. I hope I can say that about auto accidents one day.

So how did I cut that guy off anyway? Did I screw up? Ok, so I didn't REALLY cut him off, but had to "get into that slot" and it angered him -- unreasonably in my opinion but still he has a knife and he is MAD. Might I have planned my lane change better to avoid that?

Could I have seen at least that I had someone on me? Probably. Could I have taken action to get to a safe place? Sometimes.

Oh, well, that's just me. These are the things that *I* think about for protecting myself and my family.

There are some people I cannot outdraw. There are some situations that have gone SO WRONG that I cannot get out from under the disadvantage no matter how well I shoot. I really don't want to BE THERE or FACING THAT GUY.

But it is still a good question, because no matter how far behind the curve we are, we do NOT want to give up; we want to always have a plan; and we want to do the least damage possible, while being certain that IF we are attacked we will WIN THE FIGHT.

Stay alert. Stay Safe. Never give up.

[The Annoyed Man]

I've contemplated this situation too, but from the perspective of a left handed shooter. The truth is that my gun is not as easy to deploy if it is holstered when I am sitting at the wheel because I have to lean away to my right for my left arm to clear the door and access the gun. The truth is also that, in the interest of keeping it concealed and accessible, I keep it holstered rather than in the console. Keeping it in the console would require me to rotate my body away from the oncoming threat and turn my back on him in order to reach into the console with my left hand. So, keeping it holstered is a compromise, but at least I can get to it with my shooting hand. If the BG is close by, I have to balance managing his threat, while still trying to access the weapon.

I'm not sure what to do about it yet.

BTW, years on a road racing course have made me into a very skilled driver. But there is a difference between being technically skilled, and being a good driver within the confines of traffic, and having to share the road with the occasional yahoo who doesn't play well with others. I actually drive more slowly and carefully since I got my CHL than I used to. But, it is conceivable that I might entirely unintentionally upset someone else, or simply have that chance encounter with another driver who's had a really bad day that had nothing to do with me at all. There just isn't anything you can do about those guys, except be aware that they are out there, and be mentally prepared for what you're going to do about it.

One way that occurs to me for me to dealing with the proposed scenario in the OP would be, since the threat is danger close, and since I can't easily get to my weapon except by leaning away - which might expose my weapon for him to grab - to use my door offensively as a weapon. I could maybe throw the door open hard against him, begin exiting the vehicle, and then use the my upper body strength to pin him with my right side against the vehicle next to mine, while I used my left hand to deploy my weapon. I would then also have an avenue for escape on foot to a less confining area - which would also put distance between me and his threat, and give me greater room to bring my pistol to bear.

I haven't really thought that one all the way through, but that is a possibility that occurs to me as I sit here writing this, and sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

What do you guys think about that idea?

[HerbM]

I've contemplated this situation too, but from the perspective of a left handed shooter. The truth is that my gun is not as easy to deploy if it is holstered when I am sitting at the wheel because I have to lean away to my right for my left arm to clear the door and access the gun. The truth is also that, in the interest of keeping it concealed and accessible, I keep it holstered rather than in the console. Keeping it in the console would require me to rotate my body away from the oncoming threat and turn my back on him in order to reach into the console with my left hand. So, keeping it holstered is a compromise, but at least I can get to it with my shooting hand. If the BG is close by, I have to balance managing his threat, while still trying to access the weapon.

I'm not sure what to do about it yet.

BTW, years on a road racing course have made me into a very skilled driver. But there is a difference between being technically skilled, and being a good driver within the confines of traffic, and having to share the road with the occasional yahoo who doesn't play well with others. I actually drive more slowly and carefully since I got my CHL than I used to. But, it is conceivable that I might entirely unintentionally upset someone else, or simply have that chance encounter with another driver who's had a really bad day that had nothing to do with me at all. There just isn't anything you can do about those guys, except be aware that they are out there, and be mentally prepared for what you're going to do about it.

One way that occurs to me for me to dealing with the proposed scenario in the OP would be, since the threat is danger close, and since I can't easily get to my weapon except by leaning away - which might expose my weapon for him to grab - to use my door offensively as a weapon. I could maybe throw the door open hard against him, begin exiting the vehicle, and then use the my upper body strength to pin him with my right side against the vehicle next to mine, while I used my left hand to deploy my weapon. I would then also have an avenue for escape on foot to a less confining area - which would also put distance between me and his threat, and give me greater room to bring my pistol to bear.

I haven't really thought that one all the way through, but that is a possibility that occurs to me as I sit here writing this, and sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

What do you guys think about that idea?

Remember to put it in park while you are doing all that.

I don't like it much but it might be your best. The reasons I don't like it include that the window is open and he is danger close (in the setup you're using) so when you swing the door left handed, one armed while going to park with the right hand, and the seat belt release, and perhaps an extra step since your door is locked, you don't have all that much body strength, and you are exposing your throat and left eye through the window.

Ok, so you make it out. You're not cut (badly). You throw him against another car, now you are in a fight in the road -- things go worse and you shoot him. What are all the witnesses going to say? Two guys were fighting in the road then one shot the other. I know, not your doing, but there is enough of a traffic jam that you can't drive around or through and people don't usually see the beginning (him at the door) but the second or third act when you jump out or slam him, or even shoot him.

It also depends on you being able to handle him physically.

Have you considered two guns? One for driving and one for carrying? Maybe an ankle holster so you don't have to leave the car gun in the car.

[LedJedi]

I had given the option of using the gun as a door quite a bit of thought in this scenario and decided eventually that it probably wasn't in my best interest to do so for the following reasons.

1) I would have my door locked in that scenario (as i usually do anyway) and would have to both unlock and open the door at the same time while still trying to get the element of surprise to make the move effective. I would imagine that the sound of my doors unlocking might tip off the guy to brace himself.

2) I would already have my gun out and aimed, possibly with the safety off. I don't like the idea of having to put my shoulder into the door to give it maximum force while holding the gun and trying to maintain proper target discipline.

3) If i don't execute the move correctly there's a good chance the bad guy could grab the door and wrench it open under his control. That has potential to pull me off balance which is something I don't want.

4) It might dent the door.

arguably in scenario described above I would probably be firing through the drivers side glass if he started to damage the car. one could argue that a dent is easier to fix than glass and that firing in a closed car won't do wonders for my hearing. I recognize those factors and they do bear further pondering. Perhaps a dent on the door and a quick step out to fire a clear shot might not be a bad strategy but I dont like the idea of exiting the vehicle if it can be avoided.