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I witnessed an incident in Fort Worth.

Without going into too much detail, a guy freaked out because another driver failed to accelerate after leaving a school zone. He cut me off in order to flip the other driver out and then got in front of the poor guy. I say poor guy because his only crime was missing a sign that allowed him to speed up.

I honked my horn at the guy when he cut me off, because I usually like to inform people of their bad driving. I thought they may learn something.

The bad part is that the driver who freaked out stopped his car, blocking in the other "slow" driver. He then got out of his car and approached the car behind him, with other traffic going around them at about 40mph! Luckily, this was all in my rear view mirror. I drove away after I saw the guy yelling at the slow driver with his finger against the driver side window. It didn't look like it was going to escelate, but I don't know what happened.

Two things:
First, I think that I am not going to be honking at people anymore, no matter what the circumstances are. I think the risks are just too great after witnessing this. I think he could very well have done this to me for honking at him. I don't think honking in response to another person's bad driving is "provocation" which would negate my right to deadly force - if that is necessary.

Second, I thought about what I would have done if I was the "slow" driver and trapped. I was carrying holstered on my hip. My first thought at the scene was that I would unbuckle my belt, and unholster, but stay at low ready. I wouldn't purposely hold it up to intimidate, but I would have it pointed at the guy through the door. He might see the weapon, but that would not be my purpose. My justification is that this guy has just cut off any escape and is approaching me in a threatening manner by yelling with his arm raised. I would be afraid that it could escalate if he had a weapon or he tried to enter my vehicle with force. I would definitely call 911 with the plate number and include the fact that I was armed in case the guy calls 911 as well.

Just wanted to share this experience. I have thought about this quite a bit, and I still think staying at low ready would be the right thing to do.

If someone cuts me off and stops, and it's not a red light, one of my first tasks is to call 911.

BTin wrote:I witnessed an incident in Fort Worth.

Without going into too much detail, a guy freaked out because another driver failed to accelerate after leaving a school zone. He cut me off in order to flip the other driver out and then got in front of the poor guy. I say poor guy because his only crime was missing a sign that allowed him to speed up.

I honked my horn at the guy when he cut me off, because I usually like to inform people of their bad driving. I thought they may learn something.

The bad part is that the driver who freaked out stopped his car, blocking in the other "slow" driver. He then got out of his car and approached the car behind him, with other traffic going around them at about 40mph! Luckily, this was all in my rear view mirror. I drove away after I saw the guy yelling at the slow driver with his finger against the driver side window. It didn't look like it was going to escelate, but I don't know what happened.

Two things:
First, I think that I am not going to be honking at people anymore, no matter what the circumstances are. I think the risks are just too great after witnessing this. I think he could very well have done this to me for honking at him. I don't think honking in response to another person's bad driving is "provocation" which would negate my right to deadly force - if that is necessary.

Second, I thought about what I would have done if I was the "slow" driver and trapped. I was carrying holstered on my hip. My first thought at the scene was that I would unbuckle my belt, and unholster, but stay at low ready. I wouldn't purposely hold it up to intimidate, but I would have it pointed at the guy through the door. He might see the weapon, but that would not be my purpose. My justification is that this guy has just cut off any escape and is approaching me in a threatening manner by yelling with his arm raised. I would be afraid that it could escalate if he had a weapon or he tried to enter my vehicle with force. I would definitely call 911 with the plate number and include the fact that I was armed in case the guy calls 911 as well.

Just wanted to share this experience. I have thought about this quite a bit, and I still think staying at low ready would be the right thing to do.

I won't go into great detail but in 1994 I was cut off by who wouldv'e taken my front bumper off if I hadn't slammed on my brakes. Honked at him and he began playing the hard braking game in front of me several times before stopping. Ended up blocking me in and came to my vehicle. I called him a jerk and while he "explained" why he needed to get over into my lane I didn't notice his friend get a 9mm out of the trunk. While his friend held the gun to my face the first guy began punching me through the window. Police called but only had a partial plate number. Officer told me I was lucky they didn't shoot me which I knew already. Moral: I made a vow right then to NEVER EVER teach people to drive with my horn! That was the second time I'd had a gun in my face.

Ameer wrote:If someone cuts me off and stops, and it's not a red light, one of my first tasks is to call 911.

Mine is to get out of there. In this case, if it means throwing it in reverse, and driving around, so be it.

Drive OFF! Unless you are blocked in every direction, I would never let anyone approach my car if I have an escape route. If they want to follow then they can follow me to the police station parking lot. If there is no where to go, keep the window up and draw your weapon and keep it at a low ready just like the OP did. You don't have to wave it in his face but have it ready. If he sees it hopefully he is smart and turns around and walks away, if he is not so smart, then make your verbal command or warning, STOP don't come any closer! If it escalates and you feel threatened enough to act the do so. In my eyes there is NEVER any reason for anyone to get out of their car IN TRAFFIC to say anything to me! Only in an accident do I need to speak with any other motorist. Other than that get the heck AWAY from my car! I think you did the right thing in every action except honking. I pretend like my horn doesn't work b/c I don't need the attention or confrontation.

I dated a girl many years ago that had a bad habit of reaching over and honking the horn of the car while I was driving. She did it one time too many and it almost got me in a few bad situations, even after I told her to NEVER do that again she did one more "harmless" time and I dropped her off at her house and told her to meet me where we were going that she was not allowed in my car ANYMORE. Needless to say our relationship was on its way out...

Ameer wrote:If someone cuts me off and stops, and it's not a red light, one of my first tasks is to call 911.

The OP describes a very scary incident. And now I'm going out to my car to practice the "call police" feature through Sync. I'm not actually going to dial of course. But the only way I'm going to remember how to do it in an emergency is if I practice the steps until they're ingrained.

Thanks for the reminder.

I heard a news report about a teenager getting killed in Houston recently when someone pulled up beside them at a red light, proceeded to yell at them and then opened fire. The kid died in his teenage girlfriend's arm. How senseless!

T.

Just to be clear, I witnessed this, it did not happen to me.

There was no escape route for the trapped vehicle except reversing, which would have been nuts with oncoming traffic!

As for 911, I can tell you that there was not time for that. The guy slammed on his brakes and got out of the car as soon as it stopped.

In this case, I think if a phone is handy, if the guy saw you on it, he would probably get even more upset because he would think you were going slow because you were on the phone! Maybe showing him the phone and yelling that are calling 911?

I think the verbal commands are a good suggestion. I don't practice yelling when I dry fire. Maybe I should start practice yelling, "Stop!" "Someone call 911!"

Scary story Puma Guy. Thanks for all the other responses!

While I get the "try to get out there" mentality, in most traffic scenarios that I can think of, my first response would be to get my gun at the ready and "see where it goes".

Y'all might be a lot better at me at multi-tasking, but if I choose between 911 and 1911, I am going for my 1911 :-)

after the situation calms down, then I will call 911 so that a report can be filed, but I dont see how it is possible to do both at the same time?

I have just read too many articles about stuff escalating quickly and I would rather have a gun in my hand than a phone.

WOW!

Armchair Tuesday evening Tactician here...:)

Obviously 911 is a good answer, but I'm not sure it's immediate enough...perhaps 911 on speaker, and drop the phone--wouldn't want to be any more distracted than necessary in this situation.

Reverse sounds crazy in the situation, but it *may* be an option...if I'm about to get hit by a car, and there's an attack on, my priority is survival...of both me and (if possible) my car (escape mechanism)...i.e. a hit in the back bumper is less disabling than a hit in the radiator...

And when someone approaches my vehicle, after forcing me to stop, and not at an intersection, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...this is an attack, and I think (again, prefacing it with I wasn't there, and all that) I'd call 911, and call upon 1911. I'm not sure I'd want to stay in the car (not tactically sound) but I know I'd NOT want to remove that barrier (cover...limited, but some).

It sure makes ya think....

cbunt1 wrote:I'm not sure I'd want to stay in the car (not tactically sound) but I know I'd NOT want to remove that barrier (cover...limited, but some).

Even a weak barrier may be a psychological barrier against an attacker. ISTR anecdotal evidence of people successfully taking cover behind thin sheet metal signs in gunfights due to that effect. More importantly after the fact, staying in the car during the attack provides the presumption of your reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary under PC 9.32(b) if the attacker attempts to enter or to remove you from the vehicle.

(Charles, which definition of "enter" applies here? If the one from BMV - entry by any part of the body or object attached to the body - applies, then it sounds a lot more useful than the one from criminal trespass requiring entry by the entire body.)

BTin wrote:There was no escape route for the trapped vehicle except reversing, which would have been nuts with oncoming traffic!

One of the (many) reasons I drive a pickup truck is that the curb ceases to be an escape barrier. That was even more true when I drove a 4x4. I don't know if it would have helped the guy in the OP, but it's something to keep in mind.

Rush hour traffic is a perfect time to practice "what if" mental exercises and quickly scout out possible escape routes. I do that often, and it has paid off several times such as when accidents or stalled cars happened in front of me. Thankfully, I haven't needed the skill in a threat situation.

Ameer wrote:If someone cuts me off and stops, and it's not a red light, one of my first tasks is to call 911.

Are you really going to take your eyes off that person long enough to make that call?


I disagree with the others about the horn. In my opinion, its there for a reason but you don't have to use it all the time.

dicion wrote:

Ameer wrote:If someone cuts me off and stops, and it's not a red light, one of my first tasks is to call 911.

Mine is to get out of there. In this case, if it means throwing it in reverse, and driving around, so be it.

Most cars are powerful enough to push another parked car or SUV out of the way if necessary. Put it in low gear, turn the wheel, and slow and steady wins the race. Maybe the attacker will jump out of the way. Maybe not.

fecnik wrote:

Ameer wrote:If someone cuts me off and stops, and it's not a red light, one of my first tasks is to call 911.

Are you really going to take your eyes off that person long enough to make that call?


I disagree with the others about the horn. In my opinion, its there for a reason but you don't have to use it all the time.

Depending on the vehicle you drive, you may not have to take your eyes off of him. My phone button is on my steering wheel. I THINK (haven't tried it yet) that I could call 911, keeping my eye on the guy and get to my gun without making discernable moves in the driver's seat. Something to practice, I guess.

T.

KD5NRH wrote:

cbunt1 wrote:I'm not sure I'd want to stay in the car (not tactically sound) but I know I'd NOT want to remove that barrier (cover...limited, but some).

Even a weak barrier may be a psychological barrier against an attacker. ISTR anecdotal evidence of people successfully taking cover behind thin sheet metal signs in gunfights due to that effect. More importantly after the fact, staying in the car during the attack provides the presumption of your reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary under PC 9.32(b) if the attacker attempts to enter or to remove you from the vehicle.

(Charles, which definition of "enter" applies here? If the one from BMV - entry by any part of the body or object attached to the body - applies, then it sounds a lot more useful than the one from criminal trespass requiring entry by the entire body.)

Car sheet metal and thin signs are concealment, not cover. Cover would presumably stop a bullet. There may be a psychological barrier effect, I don't know. I believe that using concealment when cover is unavailable may work in a mass shooting incident or possibly when dealing with untrained assailants.

I do know that in my long life I have witnessed, been victimized by and perpetrated potential road rage incidents. I know that now I let the small stuff go but will follow someone, at a discreet distance who has done something dangerous on the road while reporting it on 911. If I'm driving my truck. If on the MC I just let it go.

There is no definitive answer as to what course to take in a given situation. Too many factors are involved. Skills, vehicle, training, mindset, ETC...