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Three hours research here and no joy, so sorry if this beating an old horse ...

Assuming a justifiable self-defense shooting, has the victim / shooter increased his civil liability, if any, by using his own reloads vs factory-fresh ammo? (Assume there's some way for law enforcement to determine it's reloaded ammo.)

(For the record, I'm thirty years past enjoying 'hot' loads. But I would like to shoot the same reloads for practice as self-defense for consistency. In hundreds of thousands of reloads, I've had no failures or squib loads, but I have had two BAD FACTORY rounds ... one missing primer and one without a powder charge. I'd rather trust my own ammo.)

I've never heard of a case in Texas where ammunition was an issue.

- Jim

If you loaded some super hot +P+ uranium type hyper propelled bullet and passed thru your intended target and injured or killed an innocent third party, your reloads would help establish that the injury or killing to the innocent third party was reckless.

txinvestigator wrote:If you loaded some super hot +P+ uranium type hyper propelled bullet and passed thru your intended target and injured or killed an innocent third party, your reloads would help establish that the injury or killing to the innocent third party was reckless.

As a side note if you do decide to load with depleted uranium bullets then civil liabilty in the unlikely event of a self defense incident would be the least of your worries.

ScubaSigGuy wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:If you loaded some super hot +P+ uranium type hyper propelled bullet and passed thru your intended target and injured or killed an innocent third party, your reloads would help establish that the injury or killing to the innocent third party was reckless.

As a side note if you do decide to load with depleted uranium bullets then civil liabilty in the unlikely event of a self defense incident would be the least of your worries.

Nothing wrong with depleted uranium - just don't use it to flavor your foods. *twitch, drool* Nothing wrong with it *jerk* at all. *rapid blinking*

This scenario might hold true in states like Maryland, DC, or New York...that you'd have to worry about reloaded ammo being used in self defense law cases.

Massad Ayoob is probably responsible for this argument being a point of contention with legal sharks who would want to nail your hide to the court house walls.

44and45

44and45 wrote:This scenario might hold true in states like Maryland, DC, or New York...that you'd have to worry about reloaded ammo being used in self defense law cases.

Massad Ayoob is probably responsible for this argument being a point of contention with legal sharks who would want to nail your hide to the court house walls.

44and45

1) It is beyond easy for LE to determine your rounds are reloads. Forensics are pretty good these days.

2) Not aware of reloads being a legal issue in any case here in TX (in recent years anyway).

3) It is conceivable that an overpenetrating reload could get you in trouble if it injured or killed an innocent person behind the intended target. But you'd also have a problem in that instance if the overpenetrating round was a factory load.

4) Ayoob has documented some cases where the use of a reload lead to a bad outcome for an otherwise good shoot. But not here in TX.

5) Buy high quality SD loads and you won't have to worry about squibs and such. I mean really, what are the chances? How many rounds do expect to fire in self defense between here and eternity? Two? Six? What are the chances that one of them will come up as a squib?

Tap, rack bang! Right?

6) I would always use factory loads for a carry or HD gun. You can almost alwayd handload a ballistically equivalent practice round if you think it is that significant - which I don't.

IMO, once you develop muscle memory with ANY load, and crunch time comes along, you will do what you have trained to do no matter what round is loaded in the gun.

From what I have read of actual encounters, you might not even hear your gun go off, let alone noticing something subtle like a slight difference in recoil.

Thanks for all the good comments ... just can't find a source for depleted uranium.

I use my reloads for SD exclusively. I've had several factory loads that have failed, so my reloads is all I shoot now. After several thousands reloads not one failure. I have a good buddy in NM who is a defense attorney and he also carries his own reloads. That, my friends speaks volumes on the subject. Later.

For the handguns, I haven't been able to come up with any SA loads that can beat Golden Sabers for reduced muzzle flash, or any revolver loads that can beat Gold Dot Short Barrel .357s for performance from the 2". (Reduced flash is kind of a lost cause there.)

Now, for the rifles, since the 30-06 and 7.62x54 are both bolt action, they're last-ditch options in a HD scenario anyway, and I don't worry about what they're loaded with. (Usually some heavy BTSP for disassembling coyotes at long range, but I don't expect it to matter much if it has to be used from ~5yds.) The .243 is my wife's go-to gun for shelter-in-place HD, and I doubt any GJ is going to indict a 5'2" asthmatic woman for shooting an intruder in the bedroom with handloads. It's usually wearing a 10-rd mag of 5 100gr BTSP and 5 85gr FMJ loaded to near SAAMI maximums, and she is comfortable with the recoil of both. In all these cases, though, the reloads are there because it's cheaper and I can get *very* consistent performance from them for the primary uses, (varmints at 50-250yds) rather than their suitability for HD - all these guns are powerful enough that even the cheapest FMJ expands or breaks up in soft tissue (tested w/expired cream cheese) at close range, and makes an unholy mess doing it. (cheese travels 25-40yds in all directions...big fun, and the small furry critters love it)

Now, where reloads *really* make sense for HD/SD is in the shotguns; I don't have a shotshell reloader at the moment, but I'm considering it just for that. I'd like to have the first round up in each gun be the heaviest load of #4 buck it can take (3.5" for the HD and 3" for the one I usually toss in the car) for maximum pellet count and minimum overpenetration, while maintaining a pellet size large enough to be effective. I've only rarely seen #4 buck loads available, and then only in 2.75". For that matter, I wouldn't mind having some 3" #12 loads for taking out wasp nests in the trees, either.

Have to take issue with a couple of Yankee's statemetns....

Quote:
2) Not aware of reloads being a legal issue in any case here in TX (in recent years anyway).

COMMENT:
Not only not in Texas but not anywhere else either... It just isn't an issue...

QUOTE:
4) Ayoob has documented some cases where the use of a reload lead to a bad outcome for an otherwise good shoot. But not here in TX.

COMMENT:
Unless Ayoob has been able to find a case in the past few years he has never shown a case that hand loaded ammo was an issue... none, zero, zip. Of hate his comment has been "why take the risk of giving a prosecutor something he "MIGHT" use.

QUOTE:
5) Buy high quality SD loads and you won't have to worry about squibs and such. I mean really, what are the chances? How many rounds do expect to fire in self defense between here and eternity? Two? Six? What are the chances that one of them will come up as a squib?

COMMENT:
Factory ammo has failures too... Just bought a box of "Factory" premium HP ammo that had two primers reversed in the case... I have had two kB! incidents with factory ammo... hummmm....Ammo loaded by an educated, careful hand loader is at least as good as factory ammo...often better.

My thoughts anyway...


Chuck

44and45 wrote:This scenario might hold true in states like Maryland, DC, or New York...that you'd have to worry about reloaded ammo being used in self defense law cases.

Massad Ayoob is probably responsible for this argument being a point of contention with legal sharks who would want to nail your hide to the court house walls.

44and45

============================================

Quoting myself here,

Years ago, Ayoob, once written a magazine piece in Gun's magazine, or it was the American Handgunner, that was about the above legal sharks could beat you in an eastern court of law on home-made ammo being used in a self defense shooting.

In other words, the perp could or his kin could collect on you for shooting their darling in a self defense shooting...even if you were the victim of his agression. (sounds about par for eastern yankee liberal justice)

44and45