An embarrassingly basic question

[DParker]

The scenario I propose did not assume that the BG was IN your home. Merely either on your property or in some other situation that makes your possession and use of the firearm legal. It *did* assume, however, that things have played out in such a way that the BG did not challenge you once your weapon was brought to bear (leaving you with no reason to shoot), nor did he try to flee the scene.

I don't see this happening in this day and age.

Well, the fact is that this DOES happen in this day and age. Try Googling "gun", "intruder" & "at bay" and you'll find quite a few news stories describing such incidents.

But I both follow and largely agree with most of the rest of what you said.

You're exactly right, but that's why they're police officers; they train regularly in "shoot/don't shoot" situations. The LEO can never be certain of anything; that's why cops will say ordinary everyday traffic stops are the most dangerous thing a cop does. However, knowing that the homeowner is armed and holding the BG at bay leads the LEO to expect that situation when he shows up.

Since there's the possibility that it was someone else who called the police I have no way of knowing what they've been informed of. Hence my extra concern for their uncertainty upon arrival.

Having encountered this situation, the officer will draw and order the BG to the ground. If at that point you are still holding your weapon, the officer will ask you to lower it. He'll cuff the BG, then ask for your weapon. He's just controlling the scene. If you haven't done anything threatening to him or the BG, you may be left uncuffed, but it's possible that the officer will cuff you as well until the whole thing is sorted out.

That's all fine and what I would expect, as my purpose for posing this hypothetical was not to find out how to avoid being temporarily cuffed at the scene. It was to avoid being shot or otherwise wounded.

Legally speaking, drawing on a BG is use of force. Firing is of course use of deadly force. However, from a practical standpoint, if you are afraid for your life or safety, those of someone close to you, or of your possessions, draw and fire. Drawing on an invading BG by itself isn't always a deterrent, and by the time you figure out it isn't you could be dead.

I believe the axiom here is, "Don't draw unless you're prepared to shoot." Not, "If you draw then you should automatically shoot." There are many reasons and situations that might merit drawing as a defensive precaution, but not automatically require shooting.

[aardwolf]

Show 'em your CHL badge.

I keep that right next to my Official Mall Ninja Card

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=q_0RyNb57DQ[/youtube]

[SCone]

It would be best to keep the 911 operator on the phone until the police show. That way you have the 911 operator telling you what is going on and they can be letting the police know what to expect when they find you. As far as keeping the intruder under control until the police arrives, get a set of handcuffs.

[lunchbox]

It would be best to keep the 911 operator on the phone until the police show. That way you have the 911 operator telling you what is going on and they can be letting the police know what to expect when they find you. As far as keeping the intruder under control until the police arrives, get a set of handcuffs.

or a giant zip tie
and tie that sucker up
I keep a few industrial zip ties in my truck

[Liberty]

It would be best to keep the 911 operator on the phone until the police show. That way you have the 911 operator telling you what is going on and they can be letting the police know what to expect when they find you. As far as keeping the intruder under control until the police arrives, get a set of handcuffs.

I for one will not be holding a phone when the manure hits the fan. Most of us will accept that a cell phone is a distraction while we are doing everyday tasks such as driving or even socializing with family and friends. The 911 operator isn't a police officer and isn't there to see what is going on.

Yes, we need to call 911, but they will try to keep us on line as long as they can. We need to make the call as accurate but as concise as possible, and know when to drop the phone or hang up. We need to concentrate on the incident as it unfolds, and keep the distractions minimalized

[Wildscar]

It would be best to keep the 911 operator on the phone until the police show. That way you have the 911 operator telling you what is going on and they can be letting the police know what to expect when they find you. As far as keeping the intruder under control until the police arrives, get a set of handcuffs.

I for one will not be holding a phone when the manure hits the fan. Most of us will accept that a cell phone is a distraction while we are doing everyday tasks such as driving or even socializing with family and friends. The 911 operator isn't a police officer and isn't there to see what is going on.

Yes, we need to call 911, but they will try to keep us on line as long as they can. We need to make the call as accurate but as concise as possible, and know when to drop the phone or hang up. We need to concentrate on the incident as it unfolds, and keep the distractions minimalized

Thats when a blue tooth head set would come in handy. You could still have both hands free to deal with the BG. I have been thinking about getting for that purpose. Im pretty sure you could set up a voice dial to diall 911. Just have kee off od something like "I need backup" or "Call Police" or what ever. It might still be viewed as a distraction but as big as having to hold a phone and your firearm at the same time. Just a thought.

[SCone]

I for one will not be holding a phone when the manure hits the fan.

Sorry, but I made the assumption that everyone has a speaker phone option on their phone or cell. Even you do not, it makes more sense to me to have the 911 operator hearing everything that is going on at the scene, whether you are still on the phone talking or the phone is lying on the floor with the line open.

[Skiprr]

As always, the following is simply my opinion. I am not an expert...but I've trained with some.

First, no handcuffs or zip-ties! For Police Officers, if they don't have a partner to assist, handcuffing a suspect is probably the single most dangerous moment of the encounter. Why? Because you have to get up close and personal to do it. At a distance of only a couple of feet, your gun can become more of a liability than an asset. As an untrained citizen operating alone, attempting to apply a physical restraint can be an invitation for the VCA to take that pistol away and, at best, turn the situation into a ground-and-pound.

We had a thread a while back about the worst firearm gaffs in the movies, and I don't if anyone posted, "Anytime the guy with the gun walks up to another guy in order to stick the barrel of the gun to his head, face, chest, etc." Though admittedly risky, it isn't difficult to remove a gun from someone's grasp if the gun is close to you. You don't want to go there. Use the defensive distance the firearm gives you.

Second, holding a VCA at gunpoint is not a preferred outcome, but may be inevitable. As others have said, if he tries to run, don't stop him. But if you have to hold him, know how to position the perp: face down, legs spread, arms straight out and palms face-up. Whatever side you choose to move to, have him turn his head to the other side. A good option is to position yourself no closer than 15 feet away, and between 135-145 degrees from the line-of-sight of his turned head. That way, he must turn his head all the way over in order to see you, even in peripheral vision, but you still have a decent view of his line-of-sight.

Third, work on your command voice. Your handgun alone may not be all that intimidating to an MS13 member. His perception of your willingness to use that gun, and his perception of your experience doing so, may well be more important than the gun itself.

Fourth, worry more about yourself than the VCA. The sirens are nearing, and you can see the lightbars flashing. You're positioned behind the VCA's sphere of vision, and he's been compliantly lying spread-eagle.

Holster your gun. Do not have a gun in your hand when the Law Enforcement Officers arrive on the scene. Do not drop the gun to the ground (wouldn't that look a little guilty to you?); holster it before they arrive. If the VCA senses this and runs away, so be it. Ain't a bad outcome.

Extend your arms fully to the side and in front of your shoulders, a little above shoulder level, and spread your fingers; not the hands-above-the-head "I surrender" posture.

"Thank God you're here. I'm the one who called."

[rm9792]

Why not toss them the cuffs or zip tie and make them do it themselves? they can pull a tie tight with their teeth, I have done it many times having to hold the object being tied. Make them cuff themselves to a sturdy rail if possible, you can visually see if it looks tight enough. But i agree, stay away. I have seen in movies where they shove the 1911 into a body and pull the trigger....disconnector anyone?

[Kythas]

There were plenty of times when I was a cop when I and other officers present would handcuff everyone at the scene. I would tell them as I was doing it "You're not under arrest at this time. I'm simply handcuffing you for your safety and mine."

This would allow us to control the scene fairly quickly. We could then question the people present and determine what was going on.

As a former LEO, if I pulled up to a scene and saw someone pointing a firearm at another person, I don't know who is the BG and who is the GG. I would draw on the armed person and order them to drop the weapon. Again, everyone at the scene would be in cuffs until I knew what was going on.

First rule in law enforcement - safety first. The officer will do what he needs to do to control the scene and ensure the safety of everyone present.

[wombat]

Show 'em your CHL badge.

Oh boy what do we have here.........

If you have drawn on a perp/un-invited robber trespasser, hold them at gun point (hands on back of head and legs spread) and inform them that if they move you will treat that move as a threat to your life....! (only shoot them not the ground)
Inform 911 of your problem, describe yourself to them. And when the police get there, if its just one officer still hold your gun on the perp. If the officer drawns on you its just for his safety. If he requests you put your weapon down "Decline Politely" and tell him you will when the second officer arrives to cover the perp. He will understand your concerns, just dont have the gun pointed in his direction.

[KBCraig]

There were plenty of times when I was a cop when I and other officers present would handcuff everyone at the scene. I would tell them as I was doing it "You're not under arrest at this time. I'm simply handcuffing you for your safety and mine."

Although you told them they weren't under arrest, they were. Multiple court rulings make it clear: any time an agent of the government uses force, coercion, intimidation, or physical restraint (even if it's only "perceived"), that person is "seized", thus arrested.

A simple traffic stop in Texas is an arrest, because the driver is not free to leave. If reds and blues constitute being "seized", then handcuffs darn sure do.

[anygunanywhere]

"You're not under arrest at this time. I'm simply handcuffing you for your safety and mine."

I have never understood this statement. Perhaps a thread where it can be adequately discussed would be appropriate. I do not see how restraining me would make me more safe. Yes, it might be more safe for the officer, but not me.

Anygunanywhere

[HerbM]

"You're not under arrest at this time. I'm simply handcuffing you for your safety and mine."

I have never understood this statement. Perhaps a thread where it can be adequately discussed would be appropriate. I do not see how restraining me would make me more safe. Yes, it might be more safe for the officer, but not me.

Anygunanywhere

You are of course correct, so the only way it makes sense is if he means: I am handcuffing you so that I don't get nervous and shoot you.

[LedJedi]

As always, the following is simply my opinion. I am not an expert...but I've trained with some.

First, no handcuffs or zip-ties! For Police Officers, if they don't have a partner to assist, handcuffing a suspect is probably the single most dangerous moment of the encounter. Why? Because you have to get up close and personal to do it. At a distance of only a couple of feet, your gun can become more of a liability than an asset. As an untrained citizen operating alone, attempting to apply a physical restraint can be an invitation for the VCA to take that pistol away and, at best, turn the situation into a ground-and-pound.

We had a thread a while back about the worst firearm gaffs in the movies, and I don't if anyone posted, "Anytime the guy with the gun walks up to another guy in order to stick the barrel of the gun to his head, face, chest, etc." Though admittedly risky, it isn't difficult to remove a gun from someone's grasp if the gun is close to you. You don't want to go there. Use the defensive distance the firearm gives you.

Second, holding a VCA at gunpoint is not a preferred outcome, but may be inevitable. As others have said, if he tries to run, don't stop him. But if you have to hold him, know how to position the perp: face down, legs spread, arms straight out and palms face-up. Whatever side you choose to move to, have him turn his head to the other side. A good option is to position yourself no closer than 15 feet away, and between 135-145 degrees from the line-of-sight of his turned head. That way, he must turn his head all the way over in order to see you, even in peripheral vision, but you still have a decent view of his line-of-sight.

Third, work on your command voice. Your handgun alone may not be all that intimidating to an MS13 member. His perception of your willingness to use that gun, and his perception of your experience doing so, may well be more important than the gun itself.

Fourth, worry more about yourself than the VCA. The sirens are nearing, and you can see the lightbars flashing. You're positioned behind the VCA's sphere of vision, and he's been compliantly lying spread-eagle.

Holster your gun. Do not have a gun in your hand when the Law Enforcement Officers arrive on the scene. Do not drop the gun to the ground (wouldn't that look a little guilty to you?); holster it before they arrive. If the VCA senses this and runs away, so be it. Ain't a bad outcome.

Extend your arms fully to the side and in front of your shoulders, a little above shoulder level, and spread your fingers; not the hands-above-the-head "I surrender" posture.

"Thank God you're here. I'm the one who called."

Best answer i've seen by far and just about exactly what I'd have said.

Command voice here is very important. The threat of you shooting him is what likely stopped the perp in the first place. He/She has to continue to believe that threat throughout the encounter or you may actually have to shoot them.

Do NOT under any circumstances get close to the perp while armed. No closer than 15 feet if you can help it and stay out of their field of vision. You control them with your voice. The less information they have about you the better and the less likely they are to try something.

Call 911 and inform the police of what's going on. Ask the dispatcher to please inform the officer that the home owner is holding the perp at gun point and what both of you are wearing. Then... get off the phone. Remember the mess Joe Horn got himself into? The officers have the information they need upon arrival. You need to reduce your liability which means stop having what you say recorded. In generally you should keep your yapper shut.

I do not like the idea of using mechanical restraints on the perp. However, I may order the perp to SLOWLY take out his wallet and toss it to me. At which time i'll take his ID, put it with mine. That way if he decides to run off I already have his ID. Done this before. It works great and makes the perp much less inclined to leave or otherwise act out.

By all means re-holster (if you have a handgun) or otherwise stop pointing the weapon while maintaining it securely in your control when the officer arrives. You don't want the officer rolling up on you drawing down on someone. Have your ID ready and be holding it out for the officer before they arrive on the scene. You'll need to establish your identity and the fact that you belong there.

If at all possible I would have the wife bring me a lawn chair and a glass of milk and I'd sit there patiently waiting well behind the perp with the shotgun across my lap. An officer will rarely consider a seated person with a glass of milk a threat. Well, maybe if they're lactose intolerant.