Uncertain about this instructor...

[longtooth]

Even w/ these examples I still think most CHL holders shoot at least enough to stay proficent. My Mother loves to shoot & never misses an opportunity to go to the range for practice at targets or practical training. We give commands to the cardboard. I stand behind her & am the verbal part of the BG in front of her. She likes that part too.
OTOH, My wife will never remind me as we go to bed Friday night, now remember tomorrow is Sat. & we have not been to the range this week. But she still shoots enough to remain proficient.

[flintknapper]

Guys, do you know why SWAT teams and other speciality units have nearly 100% hits?

References? And are you referring to only shots fired with pistol (as per most LE and civilians) or did you take into account: Multiple operators, full body armour, MP-5's, tactical shotguns, assorted tactical carbines, red dot sights, laser sights, weapons mounted lights, flash bangs, etc, etc...

I agree that the people who made the idiotic comments about hit ratios are morons, but they have a point. Hit ratios ARE low. You can't just accept the fact of low hit ratios and pray for the best. You must practice to improve yourself.

No argument here. Hit ratios are low for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is people standing still "punching paper", not realistic, nor useful IMO.

Heres a dismal hit ratio:

Police fired 55 shots

By LAURIE MASON
The Intelligencer

The gun police say Sean Sullivan pointed at them moments before they fired 55 shots at him, six of which struck and ultimately killed him, wasn't real, but it sure looked it.

In fact, prosecutors said Tuesday, the 21-year-old Warminster man was brandishing a pellet gun that was a dead ringer for a Walther PPK, the same gun James Bond used in the 007 spy movies.

Faced with what they believed to be a real weapon, the officers were justified in using deadly force against Sullivan, said David Zellis, Bucks County's first assistant district attorney.

Zellis, releasing the results of a four-day investigation into the shooting, placed full blame for the incident on Sullivan, who forced a standoff with officers trying to serve his mother an arrest warrant.

“It was Sean Sullivan who said he had a gun and threatened police. The officers repeatedly offered him a peaceful way out,'' Zellis said.

He said Sullivan, who had a long arrest history, “squared off� with the cops who tried to stop him from leaving his back yard and kept running even after he was first shot. Zellis said the officers then shot Sullivan as he tried to scale a fence to prevent him from getting to another yard, where there were more police officers and neighbors.

“It was Sean Sullivan who made all these decisions. They could not allow him to leave that yard with that gun,� Zellis said.

The shooting occurred around 6:30 a.m. at the Chestnut Road home Sullivan shared with his mother, Carol Sullivan, 46.

Officers went there to serve Carol Sullivan with an arrest warrant accusing her of giving false information to authorities while bailing Sean out of jail after he was arrested by Abington police two weeks before for credit card fraud.

After a brief struggle, police say, Carol Sullivan was taken into custody, but Sean barricaded himself in his bedroom and told police he had a gun.

At least 10 officers from Warminster and nearby Warrington surrounded the home. Sullivan then climbed out a window and ran toward the cops, pulling the gun from his waistband, Zellis said.

The county SWAT team did not arrive until after the shooting.

The prosecutors said the officers told Sullivan to put up his hands, but he kept pointing the gun and threatening them. After he was hit by the first shot, he continued to come toward them then ran for the fence, Zellis said. The officers fired 55 shots, six of which hit Sullivan in the shoulder, chest, leg and back, according to a coroner's report.


“They believed that such force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to themselves and others,� Zellis said.

The officers who fired the fatal shots were not named. The incident was the first time that cops from either township have fatally shot a suspect.

Warminster Police Chief Mike Murphy said the officers involved in the shooting have been cleared by a psychologist to return to work. But, he said, they will not forget the violent incident.

“The officers involved in this shooting will remember that day for the rest of their lives,� Murphy said. “Every one of those officers felt threatened to a point where they had to use deadly force, and they have to live with that. They did what they had to do to protect the community.�

Carol Sullivan will not face charges stemming from the standoff, Zellis said.

She was arrested on the day of the shooting on charges from the bail incident, however, and could be found in violation of her agreement with a program that allows first-time offenders to clear their criminal records. She was allowed in the program last year after she was charged with possessing marijuana.

Carol Sullivan could not be reached for comment Tuesday. The Intelligencer was unsuccessful in tracking down other family members for comment.

It was unclear why Sullivan had the pellet gun, which can be purchased in many sporting goods stores. To emphasize how real the black metal weapon looks, Zellis placed it on a table next to a real handgun during a press conference in his Doylestown office.

[cats1948]

Welcome cats1948, glad to see you got your login problem solved. Going to shoot Saturday?

Planning on it--I may need some shooting for stress relief after another week on the new job!!
CATS

[cats1948]

Some time ago there was an LEO who shot with us at PSC-IDPA very regularly. He was GOOD. However he made it a point to recruit his fellow officers to come shoot with us, and over several months a fair number of them came -- once. The most common reason cited for them not coming back was that they were embarrased because the 'civilians' were shooting so much better than they were.

Thanx,
TraCoun

Love it!!! CATS

[txinvestigator]

T

Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?

Regards,
Andrew

The overwhelming majority of renewals that come thru our doors have not shot since their last qualification.

[longtooth]

Of those renewals & by experience. Do the CHL holders that actually carry on a regular basis practice & train regularly?

[Charles L. Cotton]

I have mixed emotions about posting this, because I preach to everyone that will listen about the importance of continued training and practice. Nevertheless, a LEO’s comments about LEO’s in general being more competent at arms than citizens raises my blood pressure.

While there are statistics (accurate or not) that speak to the deplorable hit ratio among LEO’s involved in shootings, there are no similar statistics for citizen shootings. The assumption that citizen self-defense shootings will suffer the same poor hit ratio is pure speculation. The overall hit ratio for LEO’s includes not only the familiar “7 yards or closer� scenarios, but also shootings of much greater distance. They also involve scenarios citizens are not as likely to face (fleeing vehicles, “running� gun battles, concealed or barricaded shooters, etc.). It is entirely possible that the majority of citizen self-defense shootings would enjoy a higher hit ratio, perhaps a much higher ratio. This too is speculation, but no less plausible than the contrary.

Now I can’t close without a pitch for training and practice. Do it! Practice as often as time and money will allow. As for training, if you can afford to go to a major school then by all means do so. But if that isn’t in the budget, you have several other options. There are traveling instructors that offer excellent instruction like those posted by txinvestigator, Rooster and Paladin. You can get training from local shooters who are skilled not only in shooting but in training others. (Not every good shooter can teach equally well.) Don’t make the mistake of going to the range and just putting rounds down range in a mindless exercise. Before leaving your home, decide precisely what you are going to work on that day. . And be sure to also work on what you do poorly, not only the things you do well. It may not be much of an ego-builder, but it just may save your life or a life you value more than your own.

I’d like to echo what txinvestigator said. The SWAT guys have a great hit ratio because of their dedication to practice and because of their mind-set. I personally believe that mind-set is every bit as important as practice, perhaps more so, but I’m not saying a good attitude takes the place of practice.

Train, practice and pray our Lord never allows us to be in a position where we have to put those skills and our determination to the test.

Regards,
Chas.

[KBCraig]

T

Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?

Regards,
Andrew

The overwhelming majority of renewals that come thru our doors have not shot since their last qualification.

The overhwhelming majority of our LEOs renewing annual qualification have not shot since their last qualification.

Your point is?

[KBCraig]

What a couple of dipsticks, that's some insane logic. ( Jim gets on his soap box)

For 1 thing even if I miss 90% of my shots I will still get 1 or 2 of my 11 rounds of .40acp into the target! Still better odds than standing there unarmed waiting for officer negitive to save me. (No disrespect to al lthe good LEO's)

and where do your 8 other shots go? Into me or my family? How about you practice more and get better.

If Diode was an on-duty LEO, would you question where 86% of his shots (that miss!) go?

I'm curious why you are so eager to defend missed shots by LEOs, and condemn non-LEO accuracy, since you no longer have a TCLEOSE card.

Wannabe, maybe?

Kevin

[txinvestigator]

T

Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?

Regards,
Andrew

The overwhelming majority of renewals that come thru our doors have not shot since their last qualification.

The overhwhelming majority of our LEOs renewing annual qualification have not shot since their last qualification.

Your point is?

My point is to answer the question that BobCat asked. Did you miss his question? You quoted it. Here, I'll quote it again for you;

HIS QUESTION: Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?

We see at least 80 renewal students A MONTH. The majority only shoot when they have to, even those who carry regularly.

Don't want to argue so badly that you miss the obvious.

[txinvestigator]

What a couple of dipsticks, that's some insane logic. ( Jim gets on his soap box)

For 1 thing even if I miss 90% of my shots I will still get 1 or 2 of my 11 rounds of .40acp into the target! Still better odds than standing there unarmed waiting for officer negitive to save me. (No disrespect to al lthe good LEO's)

and where do your 8 other shots go? Into me or my family? How about you practice more and get better.

If Diode was an on-duty LEO, would you question where 86% of his shots (that miss!) go?

Yep. I don't want any cops shooting me or my family either.

I'm curious why you are so eager to defend missed shots by LEOs, and condemn non-LEO accuracy, since you no longer have a TCLEOSE card.

First, what does me having a TCLEOSE card have to do with ANYTHING? (and you have no idea the status of my card, Bucko)

Second, show me where I defended missed shots by LEO's?, and where I condemned NON-LEOs.

Third, I was answering a non-LEO who made comments in a discussion; I was not responding to a LEO who asked the question.

Fourth, wannabe? Thats funny coming from you.

Fifth, where did you get that huge chip on your shoulder?

[BobCat]

Gentlemen,

My question, "Do any of you know CHL holders who carry but seldom shoot?" has been answered quite well. I am dismayed that many CHL holders do not see fit to maintain their shooting skills, but that is what several instructors here report.

CATS1948 originally asked if anyone had heard the argument that regular citizens, as opposed to Law Enforcement Officers, would perform worse that LEOs since they do not practice as much. I took issue with the idea that they do not practice as much, and it appears I was wrong.

Anyway, I think we can all agree to that we want to avoid having to shoot anyone, but if the situation arises we will do our best to keep the shots on target, not hitting innocent bystanders (or even slightly-guilty bystanders, if they do not pose a threat).

Thank you all for your informative responses.

Regards,
Andrew

[bauerdj]

This thread is a little bit scary, I had no idea that BOTH LEO's and CHL holders did so little practice! I would actually have thought that (active carrying) CHL holders would practice more then LEO's , since I apperently mistakingly thought a large number of CHL holders had an affinity fore firearms as well as carrying for protection.

I can also understand that the adrenelin in an exchange of gunfire might result in an increase in missed shots.

I have a feeling that security guards might just fall below either LEO's OR CHL holders. TXI, what is your expierience with SG renewals?

Dave B.

[tomneal]

I shoot becuase I like to

Not every one does


Every month, in the NRA magazine, there is some really old person that defended themself with a firearm.

Some of them sounded like they used firearms that were cleaned, oiled, loaded, and put away 40 years ago.

While I recomend training to everyone that has a CHL, I don't want anyone to lose the right to carry just because they haven't practiced.


If it were up to me, I wouldn't even require the shooting portion of the test for renewals. This seems to be working fine in Florida.

[txinvestigator]

I have a feeling that security guards might just fall below either LEO's OR CHL holders. TXI, what is your expierience with SG renewals?

Dave B.

Ohhhhh .....now THATS a can of worms!!