New guy question #3

[78641]

A little bit devil's advocate, here.

Back at the bank. It's not 30.06 posted, but the door says "no weapons allowed". I understand this has no legal meaning, and I can carry there. My question is why doesn't this sign mean anything?

My understanding is that if an agent of the bank verbally tells me that I can't carry, I have to comply. Don't the words on the door convey the same intent? Presumably whoever put them there did so on the instructions of someone with the authority to make policy decisions.

As a side note, there are a couple black powder pistols displayed on the wall in the same bank. I thought that was a little funny.

[seamusTX]

It's not 30.06 posted, but the door says "no weapons allowed". I understand this has no legal meaning, and I can carry there. My question is why doesn't this sign mean anything?

Because the law (PC 30.06) specifies what a property owner must do to make carrying a concealed weapon a criminal offense, namely, post a 30.06 sign or give an oral (spoken) notification.

- Jim

[KBCraig]

Back at the bank. It's not 30.06 posted, but the door says "no weapons allowed". I understand this has no legal meaning, and I can carry there. My question is why doesn't this sign mean anything?

From 1995-97, it did mean something. The trouble with such signs is that they can be practically hidden, but still have the weight of law. If a CHL were caught violating such a sign, or even a small 4x4 "ghost busters" sticker, there would be endless court battles about whether the sign in question was adequate to give notice that CHLs couldn't enter while armed.

Here's why it's important: criminal trespass is a Class C misdemeanor, but if you're carrying a deadly weapon it jumps all the way up to Class A.

To protect CHLs from getting in serious legal trouble (facing up to one year in jail) by inadvertently breezing past a generic "no guns" sign, PC 30.06 was added in 1997. This also prevented a years-long battle court battle over establishing a statewide standard of "sufficient notice".

[propellerhead]

"Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.

So if someone hands me a card or document with the said wording, that is effective notice? Would some sort of policy letter suffice as a document? What if this document is near the front door? What if it was attached to the door and this document has 1/2 inch letters? If that can be effective notice, wouldn't the "non-compliant" signs be considered documents and thus be effective notice?

[seamusTX]

The difference between the "card or other document" and a sign is that said card or other document must be handed to you, specifically. You are then assumed to be aware of it.

The sign is passive. It just hangs on the wall. That's the reason for the size and contrasting color requirements.

- Jim

[Venus Pax]

I would imagine that the generic "no guns" sign would give a prosecutor an added argument that the BG was given sufficient notice that guns were not allowed. In other words, the annoying technicality.
I think courtrooms can be strange places. We (teachers) were recently told that a few cases of student assault against the teacher (Harris Co.)were thrown out b/c those teachers weren't wearing ID badges, so they couldn't prove that the student knew the victim was a teacher.
My response was "'scuse me? They attend that class everyday (theoretically) and don't know the individual teaching the class is their teacher?"
This is downright silly if you ask me.

[78641]

[quote="KBCraig"
From 1995-97, it did mean something. The trouble with such signs is that they can be practically hidden, but still have the weight of law. If a CHL were caught violating such a sign, or even a small 4x4 "ghost busters" sticker, there would be endless court battles about whether the sign in question was adequate to give notice that CHLs couldn't enter while armed.

Here's why it's important: criminal trespass is a Class C misdemeanor, but if you're carrying a deadly weapon it jumps all the way up to Class A.

To protect CHLs from getting in serious legal trouble (facing up to one year in jail) by inadvertently breezing past a generic "no guns" sign, PC 30.06 was added in 1997. This also prevented a years-long battle court battle over establishing a statewide standard of "sufficient notice".[/quote]



I guess this does make sense. A sign that says "No weapons" has a lot of ambiguity. According to the guys at the airport, nailclippers are weapons. That is probably not what the bank means, but how does anyone really know?

If the bank manager says,"you, go outside and don't come in here with a gun" the meaning is much more clear.

Thanks for the help.

[mcub]

A while back, an attorney explained why laws are so confusing and complicated in a really simple cool way.

Laws are designed to control people, but prevent subjective judgments form circumventing the purpose of the law. People ,and LEO's, are intelligent and there fore are able to find unforeseen ways around a law, in response the states add complexity to the laws, which provides more opportunities for intelligent people to find ways around them. This creates a self feeding loop.

[razoraggie]

Welcome!

The million $$$ question would be this though:

Why would the bank VERBALLY tell you not to carry? Just make sure you're not printing, flahing or bragging and no one will know the difference! f they do inform you verbally for some odd reason then ask the branch manager this 1 question: "So, by prohibiting me from protecting myself in this business...you must be taking FULL responsibility for my saftety?" If they cannot answer you, then inform them politely that there are other banks that will allow you to protect yourself if the need ever arose.

Again...Welcome Aboard!