Why Hand Over CHL If You're Not Carrying?

[Abraham]

When traffic stopped by an LEO some here think it courteous to hand over their CHL in addition to their DL - when NOT armed.

If the law states such is not required, why do it?

Personally, I'm kind of uncomfortable doing something like that. It could be misinterpreted...and in some indefinable way makes me feel like I'm groveling a bit.

How is it courteous? (I'm not debating that it isn't - that's what I'm trying to find out)

My original instructor advised us NOT to do such. He told stories of LEO's responding angrily when handed an unrequested CHL and telling the CHL holder he DIDN'T ask for the CHL, just the driver's license and if he'd wanted the CHL he would've said so.

So, have things changed in this regard?

Thanks

[Keith B]

There have been HUNDREDS of posts on this in the forum. You can find a lot of responses by using the search function and a little digging. Some are for and some are against presenting when not carrying.

However, while legal not to hand it over if not carrying, most opinions are that if the LEO runs your license, when it comes back with a CHL holder, he will come back and ask for it and if you are carrying. A lot of LEO's like to know up front it you are a CHL holder, even though you legally don't have to disclose this ahead of time if not carrying. As a courtesy, I politely say "Here is my license and CHL, and I am not presently carrying. I knew it would show up so wanted to save you the trouble of having to come back and ask." Seems to be a better solution than having them come back wanting to know.

[brianko]

Some states specifically discourage the display of a CHL unless it's requested by a LEO. For instance, North Carolina warns that "you should not attempt to display either your weapon or your permit unless directed to by an officer."

I'm not aware of a similar stance in Texas, but I personally am not going to give the officer more information than he or she is expecting from me at a traffic stop. You are doing the officer no favors by handing over more than is required and/or requested. When I was working in federal law enforcement, nothing was more disconcerting than having someone hand you a bunch of documentation, most of which you didn't need or ask for. It takes brain cycles away from more important things, like maintaining situational awareness. If I'm asked for a DL, I hand it over (along with my CHL only if carrying). If I'm asked for my insurance, I hand it over. If the LEO just wants to chat (that has happened before too), I simply sit there and don't try to hand him or her anything.

My recommendation is to not attempt to give the officer your CHL unless required by statute or specifically asked to do so.

[flintknapper]

Some states specifically discourage the display of a CHL unless it's requested by a LEO. For instance, North Carolina warns that "you shold not attempt to display either your weapon or your permit unless directed to by an officer."

I'm not aware of a similar stance in Texas, but I personally am not going to give the officer more information than he or she is expecting from me at a traffic stop. You are doing the officer no favors by handing over more than is required and/or requested. When I was working in federal law enforcement, nothing was more disconcerting than having someone hand you a bunch of documentation, most of which you didn't need or ask for. It takes brain cycles away from more important things, like maintaining situational awareness. If I'm asked for a DL, I hand it over (along with my CHL only if carrying). If I'm asked for my insurance, I hand it over. If the LEO just wants to chat (that has happened before too), I simply sit there and don't try to hand him or her anything.

My recommendation is to not attempt to give the officer your CHL unless required by statute or specifically asked to do so.

Yes, I know its shocking to see me agree with brianco, but I do this time.

[WildBill]

When traffic stopped by an LEO some here think it courteous to hand over their CHL in addition to their DL - when NOT armed. If the law states such is not required, why do it?

How is it courteous? (I'm not debating that it isn't - that's what I'm trying to find out)

My original instructor advised us NOT to do such. He told stories of LEO's responding angrily when handed an unrequested CHL and telling the CHL holder he DIDN'T ask for the CHL, just the driver's license and if he'd wanted the CHL he would've said so.

Abraham - As Keith stated there have been hundreds of posts on this subject. Unfortunately we haven't heard from very many LEOs to hear their preferences.

Many people on this forum think that presenting your CHL to the LEO shows that you "are one of the good guys" and will put them at ease. Others think that they will be more likely to get a warning rather than a ticket.

As I have stated in the past, I don't think that it is courteous. If I am not carrying, I think it's excess information that the LEO doesn't need to know nor do they want to know. The one time when I did present my CHL, the LEO never asked if I was carrying. But, I may be wrong because I have never been let off with just a warning.

As far as your instructor's "stories" I can't vouch for them either way, but I suspect it doesn't happen very often and your instructor may be exaggerating. I don't remember anyone posting of an LEO getting angry about it. You are never going to please every one so the bottom line is to do what you feel is the best for you in your particular situation.

[Bart]

Some states specifically discourage the display of a CHL unless it's requested by a LEO. For instance, North Carolina warns that "you shold not attempt to display either your weapon or your permit unless directed to by an officer."

I'm sure they don't want you pulling out your gun to show a cop during a traffic stop but North Carolina law says a "person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer"

In Texas, one reason I would display my CHL during a traffic stop is because the cop will find out I have a CHL when he runs my license. I would rather hand him both cards than have him get worried that I was trying to hide something from him, or try to charge me with failing to display my license. If I didn't have a CHL, I wouldn't show him an out of state gun license because I can legally carry in my car without a license.

[brianko]

I'm sure they don't want you pulling out your gun to show a cop during a traffic stop but North Carolina law says a "person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer."

Yes, but it says nothing about producing your CHL unless you're asked for it specifically. In fact, North Carolina does not require a CHL be produced, whether or not you're carrying, unless specifically requested by the LEO (http://www.ncdoj.com/law_enforcement/cl ... rocity.jsp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Texas law doesn't require it either (if you're not carrying), so why produce it? The LEO has to return to your vehicle to give you your driver's license back, so it's not like he or she is returning to ask you specifically whether or not you're carrying. More importantly, you haven't attempted to dictate the terms of the stop by producing documentation that isn't required.

Let the LEOs do their jobs!

[SCone]

A driver's license is needed to drive, the CHL is needed to carry. If you are not carrying, then it does not even matter if you are in possession of your CHL.

Now the real question for me is what rule should be followed in the field? Is my CHL required if I am carrying on my own property? Not as far as I can tell. Is it a good practice to carry your CHL at all times? I think so, but it's not required.

Someone correct me on this, but this was how I understood the license.

[AEA]

On your own property or property under your control, you do not have to possess a CHL and therefore do not have to present it to anyone. you can even be openly carrying on your own property or property under you control (except for your car which legislation requires you to keep the handgun concealed).

[KBCraig]

Abraham - As Keith stated there have been hundreds of posts on this subject. Unfortunately we haven't heard from very many LEOs to hear their preferences.

What our member LEOs think about this really isn't important. Don't get me wrong, I value their opinions and expertise, but they're all CHL-friendly.

The opinion that matters is the worst possible response you'd get from an uninformed anti-CHL cop having a bad day. No cop's irritation at being shown a CHL when he doesn't want to see it, can possibly measure up to the irritation of that guy when he runs your license and sees that you have a CHL and didn't inform him. And believe it or not, there are cops out there who still believe you're required to show your CHL every time, armed or not.

It doesn't matter what the consensus is, nor what the average LEO would prefer. What matters is what that cop at that time thinks. That small sample constitutes 100% of the opinion poll that counts.

So... given the choice between the mild irritation of a cop who doesn't care about your CHL, especially if you're not armed, or the Type A stress of one who doesn't think any citizen should be able to carry, turning a routine traffic stop into a felony stop, gun drawn, hands out the window, etc., etc., even though you're unarmed...

Guess which I'd choose?

[Abraham]

Somewhere in the area of "Give Me Liberty or Give Me ..." I just can't hand over a portion of my rights because I might run into an uniformed LEO who might do the wrong thing.

This scenario (meekly handing over your CHL when not required to) leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Such a scenario vaguely reminds of Nazi Germany: Your papers, now!!

No, I'm not going to exercise what's NOT required by law in advance of what might happen because a government agent might not be well informed as he should be or doesn't personally agree with the law.

This type citizen behavior, willingly performed, is the type precedent I don't want LEO's to eventually expect.

Does this willingness to perform what I'm not required to perform put me at risk for a ride in a cop car? Perhaps, but I don't live in a police state and I'm not going to act like I do. Bowing in the direction of an incompetent or malicious LEO is something I'm not going to do.

At what point do we as Americans stand up for ourselves when we're in the right?

Our forefathers would be aghast at citizens behaving in such a manner towards officialdom.

[boomerang]

Somewhere in the area of "Give Me Liberty or Give Me ..." I just can't hand over a portion of my rights because I might run into an uniformed LEO who might do the wrong thing.

You asked a question and people answered it. What you do with the information is totally up to you.

[WildBill]

Abraham - As Keith stated there have been hundreds of posts on this subject. Unfortunately we haven't heard from very many LEOs to hear their preferences.

What our member LEOs think about this really isn't important. Don't get me wrong, I value their opinions and expertise, but they're all CHL-friendly.

Guess which I'd choose?

The opinion of a CHL-friendly LEO may not change how you think or act in this particular scenario, but that doesn't make their opinions unimportant in this discussion. Even though the LEO forum members may be "CHL-friendly" they all have worked for and with LEOs who are not of the same persuation, so I value and welcome their opinions and input.

While I completely understand the logic and your reasoning for your actions, it doesn't mean that I will act in the same way. As I stated in my last post:

You are never going to please every one so the bottom line is to do what you feel is the best for you in your particular situation.

You have stated your choice and I respect it. One of these days, I may even change my mind.

[Abraham]

boomerang,

I'm responding to the thread as it evolves...

I appreciate that I'm somewhat pugnacious when it comes to Americans who seem to think it perfectly reasonable to comply with what isn't required by law. To even promote it ...

Americans as a group condemn our continuing loss of freedoms in a variety of avenues, but to seemingly not only acquiesce, but meekly promote, is a head shaker for me.

[WildBill]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but what would you think about changing the law to make it a requirement showing your CHL whenever an LEO asks for your ID? That way this question would never come up.