Situation advice

[digitalpoodle]

Not sure how to approach this scenario. I carry all the time except when I work. I leave my shield in a lockbox bolted to the truck. I drive around in a govt vehicle for my job, so carrying on the job is a no-no. One day I came back to my Govt vehicle cause i forgot my briefcase and saw something I thought suspicious, some one was rummaging through a car in the lot. turned out the car belonged a worker in the bulding whom I do not know very well and the person in the car was not him! So my question is, what if this was my Govt car? There is some personal property in my GSA car. am I able to defend it as it were my own car on my driveway (it's parked in a open parking lot) with deadly force? Do I need to give the scumbag a chance to flee?

[Topbuilder]

Welcome to the forum.
Shield as in a S&W M&P Shield?

[RoyGBiv]

If you suspect that you are observing a theft, call 911.
Unless you are 1000% certain, do not use force of any kind. "Stuff" can be replaced, your freedom cannot.
There are laws regarding use of force (including deadly force) to protect property.
You can find them in CHL-16 HERE. (Link will open PDF file, see page 60-61),

[digitalpoodle]

Welcome to the forum.
Shield as in a S&W M&P Shield?

Yes.

[digitalpoodle]

If you suspect that you are observing a theft, call 911.
Unless you are 1000% certain, do not use force of any kind. "Stuff" can be replaced, your freedom cannot.
There are laws regarding use of force (including deadly force) to protect property.
You can find them in CHL-16 HERE. (Link will open PDF file, see page 60-61),

What I mean is, what if I found someone in the middle of breaking into my Govt vehicle. I looked in the handbook but still left unsure of what allowable actions

[Ericstac]

If you suspect that you are observing a theft, call 911.
Unless you are 1000% certain, do not use force of any kind. "Stuff" can be replaced, your freedom cannot.
There are laws regarding use of force (including deadly force) to protect property.
You can find them in CHL-16 HERE. (Link will open PDF file, see page 60-61),

What I mean is, what if I found someone in the middle of breaking into my Govt vehicle. I looked in the handbook but still left unsure of what allowable actions

best thing to do is call 911 and security if your parking lot has one. Don't interupt the thief.

Now, if by some odd chance you were playing Words with Friends on your iphone while walking to your car and ended up in a situation where you were now confronted by the bad guy and there is nothing you could do and he has a knife or gun or something to threaten your life with, then you fill him full of holes and you are justified.

in my eyes, anything short of your life vs the bad guys type situations are not worth the trouble. You will end up fighting in court and the jury can really make your life a bad one depending on how they see it, and chances are they will execute you if you shot some dude cuz he was stealing some CDs.

[RX8er]

Read these topics out of CHL-16 and I think it is clear: I think in this case the property is tangible, movable property if your personal property is inside the car. Read each one as one is for force and the other is for deadly force.

As other's have said, it is much safer to pick up the phone and call 911. What happens if, some other government employee is "searching" the government property you are assigned to because they are auditing the mileage or heard reports you were drinking in the car or for what ever reason. You have now shot a government employee that was only doing their job.

PC §9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in
lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using
force against another when and t o the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the
other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable
property by another is justified in using force against the other when and
to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately
necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the
force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when
he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat,
or fraud against the actor.


PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible,
movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under
Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force
is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after
committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the
nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any
other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.

[RoyGBiv]

What I mean is, what if I found someone in the middle of breaking into my Govt vehicle. I looked in the handbook but still left unsure of what allowable actions

I'll share a story with you... condensed version.

I caught two guys trying to break into my house one day, while I was inside.
In the end, I confronted them with a gun in my hand and everything turned out as it should.
In retrospect, I was a fool.

What should I have done?

I had a clear way out of the house and I should have taken it and kept going, dialing 911 as I fled, prepared to shoot it out only if absolutely necessary. I won't point a gun at a person again to protect "stuff". Stuff can be replaced. My peace of mind, even if the shooting is justified, cannot be replaced. If I'm cornered, it's another story entirely.

YMMV.

My OPINION of what's in the handbook is this...
Please understand this is my OPINION, not legal advice as I am not a lawyer.

IN THE STATE OF TEXAS I am justified in using force to protect property from a robbery if:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

I am justified in using deadly force to protect property if:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime

I am justified in using force/deadly force to protect 3rd party property under similar conditions.

This is my OPINION. I am not a lawyer.

[bayouhazard]

You work for the government. What does the policy say to do?

[RPBrown]

I have a few questions before I can provide my .02.
1) Was this at your place of employment and was it a personel car they were breaking into. If so, you call 911 and be a good witness.
2) Did you have your personel vehicle in the lot as well?
3) If at your place of employment, how would you be armed as any federal building is a no-no as is a federally owned vehicle?
4) Is the parking lot also off limits for carry. i.e. Bureau of engraving.

[Jumping Frog]

There is some personal property in my GSA car. am I able to defend it as it were my own car on my driveway (it's parked in a open parking lot) with deadly force?

The question of deadly force does not depend upon whether your property is in your own vehicle or a government-owned vehicle.

In general, you are not justified in using deadly force for burglary of a vehicle.

There is an exception in the rule for "theft during nighttime", but then you have the burden to prove:

(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Personally, there is nothing in my car worth the $10,000 or so I would need to pay an attorney just to start on my case. Regardless of my legal justification, I have made an economic decision that I am not going to shoot someone over my car or its possessions.

Now, put me or my loved one inside the car, and turn it into robbery instead of burglary of a vehicle, and that is a different story.

[digitalpoodle]

I have a few questions before I can provide my .02.
1) Was this at your place of employment and was it a personel car they were breaking into. If so, you call 911 and be a good witness.
Was in the parking lot of my office.

2) Did you have your personel vehicle in the lot as well?
Yes

3) If at your place of employment, how would you be armed as any federal building is a no-no as is a federally owned vehicle?
The building is not a federal building, Army Corps of engineers rents out one office in a private office building for my use. Inside my office (since its rented out by the federal govt) is a firearms free zone but the rest of the building isnt.

4) Is the parking lot also off limits for carry. i.e. Bureau of engraving.
No, its open for public use and for the employees of the building.

[digitalpoodle]

There is some personal property in my GSA car. am I able to defend it as it were my own car on my driveway (it's parked in a open parking lot) with deadly force?

The question of deadly force does not depend upon whether your property is in your own vehicle or a government-owned vehicle.

In general, you are not justified in using deadly force for burglary of a vehicle.

There is an exception in the rule for "theft during nighttime", but then you have the burden to prove:

(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Personally, there is nothing in my car worth the $10,000 or so I would need to pay an attorney just to start on my case. Regardless of my legal justification, I have made an economic decision that I am not going to shoot someone over my car or its possessions.

Now, put me or my loved one inside the car, and turn it into robbery instead of burglary of a vehicle, and that is a different story.

This pretty much answers my questions. I come back from my job (I travel a lot most the day and get back at night) The parking lot I am at is not in the best of neighborhoods.

[Jumping Frog]

This pretty much answers my questions. I come back from my job (I travel a lot most the day and get back at night) The parking lot I am at is not in the best of neighborhoods.

Glad I could help.

Parking lots can be scary places.