When to defend?

[kopking10]

So me and my wife have been shooting at the range twice a month for a year now.

As we have a no gun policy in our family, Oregon shooting and occasional stories about neighbours being mugged at gun point have open up talks about having a gun in the house. I like to ask for some opinions. When should I defend/ open fire?

So, do you shoot when someone enter your house after giving warning?

What to do when you are walking and someone mug you?

I understand that it's up to me at the end how I perceive the threat but I have heard stories that guy pull up a gun and get stab when giving warning.

[WildBill]

Welcome to the forum. I suggest that you and your wife take a CHL class.
The instructor will discuss some of the applicable laws that might answer your questions.
You have to make the decision when to pull the trigger.

To answer your first question about warning shots - a big No.

[The Annoyed Man]

Welcome to the forum. I suggest that you and your wife take a CHL class.
The instructor will discuss some of the applicable laws that might answer your questions.
You have to make the decision when to pull the trigger.

To answer your first question about warning shots - a big No.

What Bill said. I would add that getting your CHL doesn't mean you have to carry a gun all the time if you don't want to, although you should. Many CHL instructors will loan/rent you a gun to take their class, so you don't even need to buy one before getting your license. Also, once you have your CHL, buying your first gun gets a lot simpler because you don't have to wait while they run the background check on you.

I was raised in a no-guns family too, but that doesn't mean that I have to live that way.

[Jago668]

I'm talking about verbal warnings. No way I'm giving a warning shot. Figured I'd mention that first out since there were a couple of replies while I was typing.

Out and about, I'm not giving a warning. If I pull it is because I think I'm about to die. If my pistol coming out and up didn't do the job, I doubt me saying "Leave me alone or I'll shoot" is going to do it either. If I have enough time and distance out in the streets to feel safe enough to give a warning, then I probably have/had enough distance to attempt to avoid the problem. I can't ever remember reading, seeing, or hearing about an instance like that though. Everything I find seems to show if it is a situation in which I could shoot, then it is happening so close you aren't going to have that luxury.

In my apartment. If I'm awake and someone starts kicking in the door. Depending on how fast they are coming through, sure I'd give a warning if there was time. I'm asleep and them kicking in the door wakes me up. I probably am not going to have time or feel safe enough to give them a warning.

The problem is so much is specific to that individual situation. You are probably going to get a different answer in every reply. Also before any other discussions, you need to be asking if you think you could pull the trigger. Providing your answer is yes. Then you can start looking at what gun(s) you want. Then some actual training. Then you need to pay attention; you'll hear people talk about situational awareness. By the time a bad guy is in arms reach of you, you are going to have a bad time. The further away you can notice a problem the better. If you can see it early enough you can just walk away, and that is what you want. That isn't going to always happen, but that is the goal.

The other thing is the saying "One is none, two is one". I'd certainly have two guns. Some group of guys breaks into your house or tries to mug you. You shoot one, and the rest run away. If you end up arrested and charged they are going to keep that gun for evidence. Now what are you going to do when the guys buddies come back? Or you end up with some mechanical problem with the gun and you have to take it to a gunsmith (or send it in for warranty work)? With there being two of you, I would probably make it three (or four). If you can find one that you both like and will fit your needs that is even better. Then it is only 1 gun you have to learn, magazines work for all of them, ammo is the same, etc.

Also something that people tend to not think about, first aid. As much as we'd prefer to avoid it, accidents can happen. If you are realizing that bad things can happen and getting a gun to protect yourself; you have to look at the fact you could get shot/stabbed during the process. If that happens bandaids and cotton balls aren't going to cut it. I'm not saying go get a $300 medical kit. Having wound dressings, gauze, and paper tape isn't expensive and is much better than nothing. Keep some in the car, and in the house.

[lildave40]

Welcome to the forum. I suggest that you and your wife take a CHL class.
The instructor will discuss some of the applicable laws that might answer your questions.
You have to make the decision when to pull the trigger.

To answer your first question about warning shots - a big No.

Welcome to the forum and Wil Bill hit the nail on the head.

[Swoops1]

Just an overall answer since all situations are different and call for a different response.
NO warning shot that means you are shooting at something you do not intend to destroy and ammo is expensive.
Most likely no verbal warning. Their Mother should have warned them at an early age not to steal from people.
If someone is breaking into my house they are not there to welcome me to the neighborhood.

[Kolamer]

I will not give a warning if ever put in that situation. If someone other than my family is in my home without me knowing, I am under the assumption that they are there to do bodily harm to myself, my wife, or my son. No one knows my home better than us and giving a warning will only give away my position when / if someone needs to be engaged.

[Middle Age Russ]

There have been some great responses by others already and this probably won't add a lot to their input, but...

When should I defend/ open fire?
Generally speaking, your use of deadly force (with or without a firearm) is presumed to be reasonable if you fear for your life or someone else's. Being able to articulate your thought processes in terms of Ability (the attacker(s) must have the ability be able to cause serious injury or death), Opportunity (circumstances the attacker must be able to cause serious injury or death now) and Jeopardy (need to act immediately now to possibly prevent the serious injury or death) is helpful. Without these elements, there is generally not sufficient reason to introduce lethal force into an encounter. Keep in mind that you are responsible for the effects of each projectile that leaves your gun, and you may end up having to justify why you pulled the trigger in court.

So, do you shoot when someone enter your house after giving warning?
Most people think it reasonable to presume that an intruder in their home is up to no good, with their presence representing the supposition of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy. Depending on the individual circumstances, it may be reasonable to shoot someone in your home with or without giving them a (verbal) warning. Note: warning shots are a universally bad idea -- if you don't know where the bullet will end up you probably shouldn't release it.

What to do when you are walking and someone mug you?
Regarding protecting yourself in public, it is important to stay aware of your surroundings and to become a student of human nature. Situational awareness is a phrase used by a great many people in discussion of these concepts (I urge you to google it and do some reading if you haven't already). Part of being really aware is assessing potential threats -- two legged and otherwise -- in the environment around you, and your potential actions to mitigate these threats before they can become a serious issue to deal with. The best way to avoid a mugging or similar encounter is to not be there for it and not having to worry about using lethal force on someone or having them use on you. Muggers are simple predators and looking for the easiest prey they can find. Simply being aware and meeting their gaze makes you a riskier target for them and they'll likely look elsewhere for their next opportunity.

As for what to do in the middle of a mugging (meaning you have likely failed in situational awareness / risk mitigation techniques), only the circumstances and your assessment of the risks and rewards can guide you.

[kopking10]

I'm talking about verbal warnings. No way I'm giving a warning shot. Figured I'd mention that first out since there were a couple of replies while I was typing.

The other thing is the saying "One is none, two is one". I'd certainly have two guns. Some group of guys breaks into your house or tries to mug you. You shoot one, and the rest run away. If you end up arrested and charged they are going to keep that gun for evidence. Now what are you going to do when the guys buddies come back?

Also something that people tend to not think about, first aid. As much as we'd prefer to avoid it, accidents can happen. If you are realizing that bad things can happen and getting a gun to protect yourself; you have to look at the fact you could get shot/stabbed during the process. If that happens bandaids and cotton balls aren't going to cut it. I'm not saying go get a $300 medical kit. Having wound dressings, gauze, and paper tape isn't expensive and is much better than nothing. Keep some in the car, and in the house.

Thank you. I meant "verbal warning". No way I am giving a warning shot since my father in law has bad experience with his shotgun. I agree on med kit and having more than one same gun (preferably) as my buddy did got shot when the bad buddies came back for revenge in his ranch (it was terrible).

[kopking10]

There have been some great responses by others already and this probably won't add a lot to their input, but...

When should I defend/ open fire?
Generally speaking, your use of deadly force (with or without a firearm) is presumed to be reasonable if you fear for your life or someone else's. Being able to articulate your thought processes in terms of Ability (the attacker(s) must have the ability be able to cause serious injury or death, Opportunity (circumstances the attacker must be able to cause serious injury or death now) and Jeopardy (need to act immediately now to possibly prevent the serious injury or death) is helpful. Without these elements, there is generally not sufficient reason to introduce lethal force into an encounter. Keep in mind that you are responsible for the effects of each projectile that leaves your gun, and you may end up having to justify why you pulled the trigger in court.

So, do you shoot when someone enter your house after giving warning?
Most people think it reasonable to presume that an intruder in their home is up to no good, with their presence representing the supposition of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy. Depending on the individual circumstances, it may be reasonable to shoot someone in your home with or without giving them a (verbal) warning. Note: warning shots are a universally bad idea -- if you don't know where the bullet will end up you probably shouldn't release it.

What to do when you are walking and someone mug you?
Regarding protecting yourself in public, it is important to stay aware of your surroundings and to become a student of human nature. Situational awareness is a phrase used by a great many people in discussion of these concepts (I urge you to google it and do some reading if you haven't already). Part of being really aware is assessing potential threats -- two legged and otherwise -- in the environment around you, and your potential actions to mitigate these threats before they can become a serious issue to deal with. The best way to avoid a mugging or similar encounter is to not be there for it and not having to worry about using lethal force on someone or having them use on you. Muggers are simple predators and looking for the easiest prey they can find. Simply being aware and meeting their gaze makes you a riskier target for them and they'll likely look elsewhere for their next opportunity.

As for what to do in the middle of a mugging (meaning you have likely failed in situational awareness / risk mitigation techniques), only the circumstances and your assessment of the risks and rewards can guide you.

So, my wife is walking home from the subway in the evening and we live near university housing where unfortunately crime occurs. Also, my ex gf made a stupid mistake once when she opened the gate to the front yard (raining and police impostor) and when she realized and ran inside the house to get a knife. A gun was pulled on her.

[kopking10]

I was going to go for a CHL class 6 months back but didn't because we have the "no gun" policy. So, we got us ourselves a dog instead =)

[MONGOOSE]

A dog is a good alert.....allowing you to get to a gun.

[WildBill]

I was going to go for a CHL class 6 months back but didn't because we have the "no gun" policy. So, we got us ourselves a dog instead =)

I am a little confused.
Who made this "no gun" policy?
How do you shoot at the range for a year with this policy?

[Middle Age Russ]

So, my wife is walking home from the subway in the evening and we live near university housing where unfortunately crime occurs. Also, my ex gf made a stupid mistake once when she opened the gate to the front yard (raining and police impostor) and when she realized and ran inside the house to get a knife. A gun was pulled on her.

I assume there is a question in your response, and I am not sure that I either know what the question is or have a do-all, end-all response. That said...

IMO, women, typically being smaller statured than males and somewhat weaker (in some ways), need to be well versed in situational awareness and strategies/habits to mitigate risks. While I do not agree with his stances regarding firearms, Gavin De Becker's book "The Gift of Fear" is all-but-required reading for my female loved ones as a primer. There are other great books on social / anti-social / asocial behaviors and techniques that criminals use. These are great for the information they provide to decision-making. I hope that your wife will take such information as food for thought to integrate into her own personal protection plan. If not, the question is why does she not value herself enough (certainly more than a potential criminal assailant) to take reasonable steps to ensure that she survives each day. My point is -- she is important to you, so please do all you can to ensure that she considers her life important and embraces the idea of actively protecting it.

If you consider the area you live in to be inherently risky, please also consider training in some form of combative martial art (flash and dash stuff won't likely be much help) -- preferably empty hand as well as edged and projectile weapons -- for both yourself and your wife. Knowing how to cause damage to someone (to stop them, if necessary) and that you really can do so is important in the event you cannot avoid or de-escalate an assailant. This knowledge gives a person confidence, something that predators will usually perceive and which may therefore be enough to make them pick a different target.

[kopking10]

I was going to go for a CHL class 6 months back but didn't because we have the "no gun" policy. So, we got us ourselves a dog instead =)

I am a little confused.
Who made this "no gun" policy?
How do you shoot at the range for a year with this policy?

Both of us agreed to it. She think firearm attracts the devil so I said ok but let's keep going to the range for ad hoc basis. Her idea was, if you have a gun, the robber sees you with a gun would most likely shoot you.