Another casualty of Open Carry

[Richbirdhunter]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

I'll take the bet. Even if I lose, I win. We get to meet and have lunch.

BTW, I hope you're right and I lose. Unless you've got some insider information though, I'm just skeptical is all. GVM has been no friend to gun owners, and I've been doing what little mall-shopping I do at the Northeast Mall in Hurst instead. Hopefully, you're right.

Per https://www.facebook.com/groups/TexasCHLBoycott/, new 30.06 signs at Grapevine Mills Mall today...

I get a free lun-unch. I get a free lu-unch. Dang it!

I'm not on Facebook, what's it say?

[bmwrdr]

We have a lot of work to do to get the signs down. The opposition lost in the chamber but never gave up, they used the media and dollars to spread the word about the signs, it working for them.

Enough talk, let us work on the counter-measures campaign, awareness the OCer are CHLers, the good guys. Remember, they spread how do you know.... a man with a gun is a good guy...

That problem could be solved by changing the text in the law and add a fine for incorrect posting!

[switch]

Like many others, I felt like Grisham and OCT were over the top and were doing harm. I have decided (just my opinion), that they probably did not have a negative effect. Those that opposed OC, were still opposed. Maybe some in the middle switched their opinion. Probably some switched both ways.

We've been trying to get constitutional carry/OC for years. The fact is, it never went anywhere UNTIL these activists got involved. We got a lot of improvements this year (30.06 lowered to Class C, cities subject to $10.500 fines, Premises carry on 4 year public universities Aug 1, knife pre-emption, NFA law improved, LEO has to give you a chance to leave the TSA checkpoint). I never believed there was a chance for constitutional carry. I think licensed OC was the likely outcome. We may get constitutional carry in 4 to 6 years.

I don't know what you expected to get that was NOT passed.It seems to me, if there was a back-lash against/triggered by OCT, some of these improvements would not have passed.

Maybe the lege passed these hoping OCT would quit OC rifles. :) Actually, seems to have worked. I haven't seen any rallies w/rifles lately. :)

OK, there has been a proliferation of 30.06 signs. I think it's a worthwhile trade off, considering. YMMV

But can't we all just get along?

[switch]

That problem could be solved by changing the text in the law and add a fine for incorrect posting!

??? How would you change the text? 30.06 sign text?

Do you want to fine a company that puts up a gun-buster sign? AFAIC, a 'No Guns' sign is just a placebo, put up top mollify the anti's, has no effect on me. It's a 'don't ask, don't tell' sign, a wink and a nod. "You know what I mean, I know you are carrying, let's not wake up the sheep."

[cyphertext]

So you guys have no appreciation for this restored freedom? Would you rather the government take it away again for another 125 years? Grapevine mills mall has been posted 30.06 for years and now they aren't posted at all.

Freedom scares people, we have been told it's ok to lose freedom for safety. What freedoms are you willing to give up for safety? We have the patriot act, Obamacare, "common sense" gun laws. All of these things make us safer. Do you feel free?

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

I'll take the bet. Even if I lose, I win. We get to meet and have lunch.

BTW, I hope you're right and I lose. Unless you've got some insider information though, I'm just skeptical is all. GVM has been no friend to gun owners, and I've been doing what little mall-shopping I do at the Northeast Mall in Hurst instead. Hopefully, you're right.

Per https://www.facebook.com/groups/TexasCHLBoycott/, new 30.06 signs at Grapevine Mills Mall today...

I get a free lun-unch. I get a free lu-unch. Dang it!

I'm not on Facebook, what's it say?

One guy states that there are signs at all entrances, the next guy asks if it is "new or the non-conforming one", and the OP answers new... no photos though...

[Richbirdhunter]

Are you absolutely certain about this? GVM has famously been posted for years, and as recently as last month it was STILL posted. The parent company is extremely anti-gun, and it would surprise the heck out of me if they removed all the signs.

I haven't stopped by to check but another forum member said he checked and he could see where the signs where. That also coincides with what Grapevine PD told me.

I'm betting the new signs haven't come in yet....

That would be my bet too.

I'll bet you lunch that no 06 or 07 signs go up TAM

I'll take the bet. Even if I lose, I win. We get to meet and have lunch.

BTW, I hope you're right and I lose. Unless you've got some insider information though, I'm just skeptical is all. GVM has been no friend to gun owners, and I've been doing what little mall-shopping I do at the Northeast Mall in Hurst instead. Hopefully, you're right.

Per https://www.facebook.com/groups/TexasCHLBoycott/, new 30.06 signs at Grapevine Mills Mall today...

I get a free lun-unch. I get a free lu-unch. Dang it!

I'm not on Facebook, what's it say?

One guy states that there are signs at all entrances, the next guy asks if it is "new or the non-conforming one", and the OP answers new... no photos though...

I drove by this morning and NO signs of any kind at any entrance. The AMC theater is still posted 06 and they did add a 07 sign.

[baldeagle]

Like many others, I felt like Grisham and OCT were over the top and were doing harm. I have decided (just my opinion), that they probably did not have a negative effect.

So, in your opinion, the fact that our legislators now have panic buttons on their office doors to protect them from pro-gun activists is not a negative????

We've been trying to get constitutional carry/OC for years. The fact is, it never went anywhere UNTIL these activists got involved.

We've been trying to get campus carry for years. The fact is OCT did NOTHING to get campus carry passed and yet we still have it. So giving them credit for something we have been working on since 2011 and would have gotten passed without their "help" doesn't comport with the facts.

We got a lot of improvements this year (30.06 lowered to Class C, cities subject to $10.500 fines, Premises carry on 4 year public universities Aug 1, knife pre-emption, NFA law improved, LEO has to give you a chance to leave the TSA checkpoint).

And OCT had NOTHING to do with getting ANY of that passed. They are a one trick pony. They could care less about all the other issues that we've worked on for years.

I never believed there was a chance for constitutional carry. I think licensed OC was the likely outcome. We may get constitutional carry in 4 to 6 years.

I don't know what you expected to get that was NOT passed.It seems to me, if there was a back-lash against/triggered by OCT, some of these improvements would not have passed.

I guarantee you we would have gotten OC passed without any "help" from OCT. And we would have had a lot less negative reaction to it as well.

Maybe the lege passed these hoping OCT would quit OC rifles. :) Actually, seems to have worked. I haven't seen any rallies w/rifles lately. :)

OK, there has been a proliferation of 30.06 signs. I think it's a worthwhile trade off, considering. YMMV

But can't we all just get along?

Tell that to the guys that can no longer carry at work. To the guys that now have to change their shopping routines, because the stores they've gone to for years are no longer available to them. The tradeoff might seem worthwhile to you, because it's had no impact on you personally. It might seem a lot less worthwhile to someone who has now had to disarm.

That's exactly what many of us are complaining about. The selfish demand for "rights" turns a blind eye to the impact it has on thousands of people's lives.

[baldeagle]

One point at a time. All the links you posted in the top of thread were from 2014. That in no way shows they had anything to do with the 2015 session.

So the fact that Texas legislators now have panic buttons to protect them from pro-gun activists had nothing to do with the 2015 session and had no impact on the legislators' thinking about gun rights?

As to folks on this forum not supporting OC and you wanting 1 specific example? There are at least 10 on page 1 of this forum. Heres one. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81386]

Please! Complaining about the impact OCT has had on our ability to carry is NOT anti-OC. Find a post where someone says, "I'm opposed to OC. I think it should never pass". THAT would be anti-OC.

As to grisham being arrested for "LEGALLY" open carrying an AR. Yes he was. He was doing what he legally could on a back roads area ( there is a youtube video of this ). That did in fact start the OCT movement. Would you have done any different? You get illegally arrrested for exercising your freedoms and don't try and do anything about it? That was the whole point for him starting the group in the first place.

OK, I'll forgive you for knowing nothing about me and not bothering to find out.

Furthermore, I may be new to this forum but that does not make me any less relevant. I am pro gun. I have always been. I served 6 years in the army and have 3 tours to Iraq so do NOT treat me like I am insignificant because I don't have thousands of post like you do.

I never once said you or anyone else was less relevant. And I did not treat you as insignificant. I simply asked you to learn a little about the history of this forum before judging it. And for the record, I served six years in the US Navy during the Vietnam War.

Lastly, as I said before, and your post clearly indicates it is all speculation that OCT caused anything. You posted links to news stories from 2014 that "proved" because of their antics weapons won't be allowed in their stores. Fair point, but that is not the case everywhere.

So you concede that they did do some damage but still complain it's speculation? Fine. You're entitled to an opinion, even when it makes no sense.

Those same exact stores could have come to the same conclusion once open carry of handguns passed. You fail to realize the difference between a handgun and rifle.

Oh that's rich.

Outside of the caliber and the weight and length, they can still take your life. That's all the Anti's care about. This same exact thing would have happened regardless of OCT. Some mom in Chipotle would of got offended because the law abiding LTC holder is sporting a Springfield XDS. They only brought the attention earlier than when the law was passed.

Yes, and gave the anti-gun forces plenty of time to gear up and propagandize. What do you suppose would have happened if law abiding citizens had OC'd on Jan 1, and then, when some anti noticed it and demanded the store put up signs, the store manager said, "What? We never even noticed that. The guy was obviously not causing a problem."?

Quit being so naive.

Ooph! I'm almost 69 son. I left naive in the rear view mirror a long time ago.

This same discussion would have happened irregardless of if OCT had never existed. If this law was passed on the backburner and no one was the wizer, don't you think the anti gun folks would notice citizens with hosltered handguns instead of AR-15's on their back. Do you thinks MDA cares if you have an open carried handgun vs a rifle? Nope. A gun is a gun. This arguement was unavoidable.

Yes, but it would have been fought on OUR terms, not theirs. Which would you rather do? Patrol openly through enemy ground? Or setup an ambush and wait for them to walk into it?

Edit: If you want more examples for anti-oc on this board. Look at the title of this very thread. Also see here. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81545 or here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81114
I am not gonna link every post disproving your opinion. Browse through this forum and you will see there is quite a few folks against OC

You have a very broad definition of what anti-OC means.

Edit 2: Back to grisham and his initial arrest, he was doing nothing wrong. How did you expect him to react. Put yourself in his shoes and come up with a different scenario for how you would of reacted. Personally if I get arrested for something I'm 100% legally doing I am gonna make the worlds biggest fit about it too. I am assuming you are incorrectly looking at these issues after the fact when everything has been established and not putting yourself in that persons position. It's easy to criticize an officer invovled shooting after the video goes viral on youtube, but for that officer in that moment it is not so easy. It is their life or the suspects, and then they are judged by a jury of their peers based on that action.

Grisham didn't get arrested because he did nothing wrong. Nor was he convicted for doing nothing wrong. His BEHAVIOR was what got him arrested, and his behavior is what is causing all the problems now. And before you go off on my opinion about Grisham, go read my posts. He's a personal friend of mine, and I defended him on this forum long after the incident - until I could no longer deny that what he was doing was wrong.

If he had simply behaved like the professional soldier that he claimed to be, he never would have been arrested.

[ScottDLS]

Tell that to the guys that can no longer carry at work. To the guys that now have to change their shopping routines, because the stores they've gone to for years are no longer available to them. The tradeoff might seem worthwhile to you, because it's had no impact on you personally. It might seem a lot less worthwhile to someone who has now had to disarm.

There were companies that allowed their employees to carry at work, that then changed their minds and posted 30.06/30.07 because of open carry, AND prohibited their employees from carrying? Maybe there's ONE guy on this board where that happened, but even that's hard to believe. I'm still waiting to see how many places that had 30.06 posted failed to update the language for 2016.

The stores they've gone to for years...we have Half Price Books and unconfirmed reports of the odd gas station and Applebees. In DFW we have the Mills mall that took down their sign.

I'm still guessing MORE places we can CC legally and definitely MORE where we can OC.

[baldeagle]

Tell that to the guys that can no longer carry at work. To the guys that now have to change their shopping routines, because the stores they've gone to for years are no longer available to them. The tradeoff might seem worthwhile to you, because it's had no impact on you personally. It might seem a lot less worthwhile to someone who has now had to disarm.

There were companies that allowed their employees to carry at work, that then changed their minds and posted 30.06/30.07 because of open carry, AND prohibited their employees from carrying? Maybe there's ONE guy on this board where that happened, but even that's hard to believe. I'm still waiting to see how many places that had 30.06 posted failed to update the language for 2016.

The stores they've gone to for years...we have Half Price Books and unconfirmed reports of the odd gas station and Applebees. In DFW we have the Mills mall that took down their sign.

I'm still guessing MORE places we can CC legally and definitely MORE where we can OC.

Scott, there have been three different people on this board that have stated that they can no longer carry at work because of the furor over OC. This very thread was started by one of them. Do you seriously want to claim that he's lying? http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 3#p1041163

[dhoobler]

Tell that to the guys that can no longer carry at work. To the guys that now have to change their shopping routines, because the stores they've gone to for years are no longer available to them. The tradeoff might seem worthwhile to you, because it's had no impact on you personally. It might seem a lot less worthwhile to someone who has now had to disarm.

There were companies that allowed their employees to carry at work, that then changed their minds and posted 30.06/30.07 because of open carry, AND prohibited their employees from carrying? Maybe there's ONE guy on this board where that happened, but even that's hard to believe. I'm still waiting to see how many places that had 30.06 posted failed to update the language for 2016.

The stores they've gone to for years...we have Half Price Books and unconfirmed reports of the odd gas station and Applebees. In DFW we have the Mills mall that took down their sign.

I'm still guessing MORE places we can CC legally and definitely MORE where we can OC.

They are not unconfirmed. I have seen them. I have photographed the signs. I have reported them to texas3006.com.

There are far fewer places l can carry post OC. I found out today I can't carry at church. I checked a few places that were posted 30.06 by the old rules. They both have updated their signs, so the idea that we can now carry were we could not before because of outdated 30.06 signs does not work.

Facts are stubborn things.

[switch]

Tell that to the guys that can no longer carry at work. To the guys that now have to change their shopping routines, because the stores they've gone to for years are no longer available to them. The tradeoff might seem worthwhile to you, because it's had no impact on you personally. It might seem a lot less worthwhile to someone who has now had to disarm.

That's exactly what many of us are complaining about. The selfish demand for "rights" turns a blind eye to the impact it has on thousands of people's lives.

The 30.0630.07 signs were probably going up when ever we got OC. I doubt that OCT had much to do with the new signs. Who has to change shopping? You can disarm and shop or you can CC and shop. If you change shopping, it's your choice.

It sucks to not be able to carry at work. Should we deny OC because of the irrational reaction of a few businesses?

[Charles L. Cotton]

Like many others, I felt like Grisham and OCT were over the top and were doing harm. I have decided (just my opinion), that they probably did not have a negative effect. Those that opposed OC, were still opposed. Maybe some in the middle switched their opinion. Probably some switched both ways.

We've been trying to get constitutional carry/OC for years. The fact is, it never went anywhere UNTIL these activists got involved. We got a lot of improvements this year (30.06 lowered to Class C, cities subject to $10.500 fines, Premises carry on 4 year public universities Aug 1, knife pre-emption, NFA law improved, LEO has to give you a chance to leave the TSA checkpoint). I never believed there was a chance for constitutional carry. I think licensed OC was the likely outcome. We may get constitutional carry in 4 to 6 years.

I don't know what you expected to get that was NOT passed.It seems to me, if there was a back-lash against/triggered by OCT, some of these improvements would not have passed.

Maybe the lege passed these hoping OCT would quit OC rifles. :) Actually, seems to have worked. I haven't seen any rallies w/rifles lately. :)

OK, there has been a proliferation of 30.06 signs. I think it's a worthwhile trade off, considering. YMMV

But can't we all just get along?

With all due respect, you are wrong on all counts. I know personally the negative impact OCT/Grisham had on open-carry. It's not theoretical, it came directly from the proverbial horses' mouths. You credit OCT for passage of open-carry but if you are interested in the true history of the effort to pass open-carry, read "The History of Open-Carry Efforts in Texas The Legislature passed open-carry because NRA and TSRA made it part of our legislative agenda for the first time. Members of the Legislature are not fools and they know that allowing open-carry of handguns won't stop those who want to carry rifles and shotguns. That was not a motive by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, there has been no effort to pass unlicensed open-carry by any group with any political power in Texas. I may be wrong, but I think the OCT-backed licensed open-carry bills filed in 2015 were the first. They didn't even get a hearing, so the only accurate statement about the failure of licensed open-carry would be that OCT failed in its one and only legislative goal.

OCT has nothing to do with any of the bills that passed this session.

Chas.

[baldeagle]

Charles, I've been fighting hard for several days to make the truth known. There are some that either don't want to hear it or obstinately insist it's not true. I don't think any amount of evidence will change their minds. One guy even said, about numerous links I posted proving the OCT was like a bull in a china shop, that it proved nothing. Even the panic buttons on legislators' offices don't change their opinion. You can't reason with people like that. You just have to tolerate them.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Tell that to the guys that can no longer carry at work. To the guys that now have to change their shopping routines, because the stores they've gone to for years are no longer available to them. The tradeoff might seem worthwhile to you, because it's had no impact on you personally. It might seem a lot less worthwhile to someone who has now had to disarm.

That's exactly what many of us are complaining about. The selfish demand for "rights" turns a blind eye to the impact it has on thousands of people's lives.

The 30.0630.07 signs were probably going up when ever we got OC. I doubt that OCT had much to do with the new signs. Who has to change shopping? You can disarm and shop or you can CC and shop. If you change shopping, it's your choice.

This is likely true, but the number of 30.07 signs would have been few and far between, had it not been for OCT/Grisham furnishing anti-gun legislators, media and groups with enough footage and soundbites for the evening TV news and social media pages for over a year. I repeatedly called for a calm, respectful and statesmanlike approach to promoting open-carry both in the Legislature and in the public eye. That would have greatly reduced the collateral damage Grisham/OCT has suffered upon all Texas gun owners. Even now, while we call for the same statesmanlike approach, a handful of OCT apologists deny OCT/Grisham did anything wrong or had any negative impact. As long as the public view Grisham as representative of all or a majority of Texas gun owners, then we will not be able to repair the damage done by OCT/Grisham. We repair the damage OCT/Grisham did to the open-carry issue by following the lead explained by TAM in his thread titled Concealed/Open-Carry Evangelism.

It sucks to not be able to carry at work. Should we deny OC because of the irrational reaction of a few businesses?

It's not that open-carry should not have been passed. It's that it should have been done without interference from people who only want their names in the news. If OCT has stayed out, or at least withdrawn, from public view when the NRA/TSRA got involved, then the number of people who would no longer be able to carry at work would be far fewer in number.

Chas.