Dealerships (and other businesses) posting signage

[thestudiokid]

Got this from the owner just a few minutes ago.

Hi,

I read your emails to Seth and doing a little research. I have been out of the office for six months with a sick wife, so I really haven't thought much about this. I will tell you that we have a dealer association that did a bunch of research... They surveyed consumers and employees all over DFW (as well as the state) and they gave us the numbers and overwhelmingly almost all dealers felt like they have been forced to take the same position we did. We were told that around 90% of the dealers in DFW were taking that position. Whether they have or not I don't know.... I will tell you on a personal level that I felt like it was kind of ridiculous that we were having to do that.... I think if we were to remain neutral (which was my preference) then we could have some potential liability. I honestly feel safer personally to know that a licensed person is packing!! Anyway I am going to do a little more research on this topic and see if our association chairman can tell me how everyone handled this. Thank you for bringing everything to my attention. Jason Hiley.

[Pariah3j]

Well at least it would appear that they are open for discussion about it. Of course this could be an appeasement strategy. If he owns the dealership, how does he not have the final say on whether its posted or not ? What does this [dealer association] have to do with it ?

[TXBO]

Well at least it would appear that they are open for discussion about it. Of course this could be an appeasement strategy. If he owns the dealership, how does he not have the final say on whether its posted or not ? What does this [dealer association] have to do with it ?

The dealer association would not make the decision. Most dealers are a part of at least three associations. National, state and local. These associations have counsel and lobby. In this case it sound like one of the associations made a recommendation to post the signs. It's also common to seek best practices in matters of liability from the association or other dealers. My guess would be DFW Metropolitan Dealer Association because neither TADA (Texas) or NADA (national) have recommended the signs. It's also very likely that he is like many other business people that don't completely understand the laws.

I don't know Jason well but did know his dad, Randy. He, like most auto dealers, is very conservative and a good man.

[Solaris]

Or get effective consent.

Speaking for myself... Not going to happen. I am not going to go through the hassle of trying to get consent. There are other car dealers that want my business. I would leave.

I agree, but I was just pointing out there is 1 remaining option on 30.06 in case you are in a jam.

[Syntyr]

Or get effective consent.

Speaking for myself... Not going to happen. I am not going to go through the hassle of trying to get consent. There are other car dealers that want my business. I would leave.

I agree, but I was just pointing out there is 1 remaining option on 30.06 in case you are in a jam.

No doubt. And I didn't mean that to come across snarky! I see where you are coming from. I just have a low tolerance for stupid people, not you, the dealer.

[Scott Farkus]

Well at least it would appear that they are open for discussion about it. Of course this could be an appeasement strategy. If he owns the dealership, how does he not have the final say on whether its posted or not ? What does this [dealer association] have to do with it ?

I wonder is there is some kind of insurance program connected with being a member of the association, and the insurer is the one pushing this. Aren't we seeing the same thing happening with convenience stores?

One of my concerns has always been that the anti's might pressure insurance companies to write some kind of "no-carry allowed" clause into their policies. That would essentially force business owners to post or forfeit their insurance.

[C-dub]

I did all that polite e-mail stuff with the Nissan dealership in Lewisville and was informed that for the time being the signs would not be coming down and that it was a corporate decision from Autonation, which bought up several dealerships in the north Dallas area 2-3 years ago. The General Manager at Lewisville informed me that he also has a CHL and understands my frustration, but the decision is out of his hands. So, I started looking for another dealership not affiliated with Autonation. Enter Grapevine Nissan. I visited with them last week and they are not posted. I didn't not tell them anything more than that I had a customer service issue with Lewisville and we discussed nothing regarding firearms.

The service manager at Grapevine told me they've been getting people from all of the Autonation Nissan dealers in the area for a couple of years now complaining about customer service ever since Autonation took over. I just left it at that and will be taking my two Nissan's over to them now.

[The Annoyed Man]

I did all that polite e-mail stuff with the Nissan dealership in Lewisville and was informed that for the time being the signs would not be coming down and that it was a corporate decision from Autonation, which bought up several dealerships in the north Dallas area 2-3 years ago. The General Manager at Lewisville informed me that he also has a CHL and understands my frustration, but the decision is out of his hands. So, I started looking for another dealership not affiliated with Autonation. Enter Grapevine Nissan. I visited with them last week and they are not posted. I didn't not tell them anything more than that I had a customer service issue with Lewisville and we discussed nothing regarding firearms.

The service manager at Grapevine told me they've been getting people from all of the Autonation Nissan dealers in the area for a couple of years now complaining about customer service ever since Autonation took over. I just left it at that and will be taking my two Nissan's over to them now.

Btw, C-dub, I OC'd at Texas Toyota of Grapevine yesterday. It wasn't posted. They are owned by the same corporation that owns Texas Nissan in Grapevine....if that answers your other question.

[C-dub]

I did all that polite e-mail stuff with the Nissan dealership in Lewisville and was informed that for the time being the signs would not be coming down and that it was a corporate decision from Autonation, which bought up several dealerships in the north Dallas area 2-3 years ago. The General Manager at Lewisville informed me that he also has a CHL and understands my frustration, but the decision is out of his hands. So, I started looking for another dealership not affiliated with Autonation. Enter Grapevine Nissan. I visited with them last week and they are not posted. I didn't not tell them anything more than that I had a customer service issue with Lewisville and we discussed nothing regarding firearms.

The service manager at Grapevine told me they've been getting people from all of the Autonation Nissan dealers in the area for a couple of years now complaining about customer service ever since Autonation took over. I just left it at that and will be taking my two Nissan's over to them now.

Btw, C-dub, I OC'd at Texas Toyota of Grapevine yesterday. It wasn't posted. They are owned by the same corporation that owns Texas Nissan in Grapevine....if that answers your other question.

That's great to know! Both vehicles need work. The car is more urgent and we'll be taking it over in a week or two.

[Abraham]

It's very simple: If your dealership is posted 30.06, I'll find one that isn't and it'll get my business.

Easy Peasy!

[thestudiokid]

Fellas, I have had a short exchange with the owner of this dealership that I would like some input on. Regarding this forum, I left off with the post at the top of this page to which I replied:

Thanks for the note, Jason.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's ailment. As a health care professional and someone who has an immediate family member with chronic illness, I understand the challenges you face. I hope and pray that your wife recovers completely.

Regarding your email, I have been very happy with the service your dealership has provided so I was disheartened to see these signs posted during our last visit, particularly the 30.06. I appreciate your decision to reconsider this.

It's worth mentioning that people who have a Texas license to carry (LTC) have some qualities you'll find appealing. They do not have any felony convictions, they have no class A or B misdemeanor convictions in the last 5 years, they've been finger printed and background checked at both the state and federal levels, and they're not dependent on drugs or have any known history of mental instability.

As I mentioned to Seth, I understand your reluctance to allow open carry in a business, a visible firearm can be a cause for alarm for some. On the other hand, since a firearm is a tool of absolute last resort and would only be drawn in a life and death situation, under normal circumstances, a legally concealed weapon presents no risk or cause for alarm for anyone. More specifically, if a dealership does not allow me to carry concealed, I would have to leave my weapon unsecured in my car during a service visit. If I were considering the purchase of a new car with a trade in, that weapon would be out of my control during the sales manager's test drive and inspection of my car. Neither of these are acceptable scenarios, which I would have to avoid by going elsewhere.

Finally, it's worth noting that our area is among those counties with the highest concentrations of LTC holders in the state. Here's a map showing those densities.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/ ... 777817.php

Again, I appreciate you reconsidering this and I hope I can continue to do business with your company.

Regards,

I sent the above to him with the intent of providing him a little more information to help "guide" him in making a decision. Well, it appears that he has made a decision, but it turns out that he's not only one who has to sign off on removing signage from this dealership. Here's what he sent me back.

Want your opinion.... I have asked my dad to consider not taking a position on this and not having signs of any kind. We were told by our association that greater than 90% of the dealers were doing what we did and that's why we did it. I told my dad that in all of the years we have been in business that I have never seen a person come into any of our stores with an open carry.... That is really the issue, however for whatever reason we have always had a no carry policy on the property. So if I can convince him of that, I would rather take the Switzerland approach and not post signs.... Just looking for your feedback on this. We recognize that gun owners can be very passionate about this but the same goes for non gun people... Let me know your thoughts and thanks for taking the time to bring this to our attention. Jason

Can you decipher what he's requesting my opinion on? Clearly, he doesn't know that open carry was first legal on January 1, but beyond that I'm not 100% certain what he's wanting me to elaborate on. Thoughts?

[lildave40]

I did all that polite e-mail stuff with the Nissan dealership in Lewisville and was informed that for the time being the signs would not be coming down and that it was a corporate decision from Autonation, which bought up several dealerships in the north Dallas area 2-3 years ago. The General Manager at Lewisville informed me that he also has a CHL and understands my frustration, but the decision is out of his hands. So, I started looking for another dealership not affiliated with Autonation. Enter Grapevine Nissan. I visited with them last week and they are not posted. I didn't not tell them anything more than that I had a customer service issue with Lewisville and we discussed nothing regarding firearms.

The service manager at Grapevine told me they've been getting people from all of the Autonation Nissan dealers in the area for a couple of years now complaining about customer service ever since Autonation took over. I just left it at that and will be taking my two Nissan's over to them now.

Auto Nation Chevrolet in Houston posted up both signs as well. I asked my salesman about it and he said they had no choice but to put it up.

[txbirddog]

Got this from the owner just a few minutes ago.

Hi,

I read your emails to Seth and doing a little research. I have been out of the office for six months with a sick wife, so I really haven't thought much about this. I will tell you that we have a dealer association that did a bunch of research... They surveyed consumers and employees all over DFW (as well as the state) and they gave us the numbers and overwhelmingly almost all dealers felt like they have been forced to take the same position we did. We were told that around 90% of the dealers in DFW were taking that position. Whether they have or not I don't know.... I will tell you on a personal level that I felt like it was kind of ridiculous that we were having to do that.... I think if we were to remain neutral (which was my preference) then we could have some potential liability. I honestly feel safer personally to know that a licensed person is packing!! Anyway I am going to do a little more research on this topic and see if our association chairman can tell me how everyone handled this. Thank you for bringing everything to my attention. Jason Hiley.

Does anyone know where this "potential liability" thought process has come from? It is not just in this case but I've heard it before. Has there been an actual court case or is this just rhetoric?

[mr1337]

I did all that polite e-mail stuff with the Nissan dealership in Lewisville and was informed that for the time being the signs would not be coming down and that it was a corporate decision from Autonation, which bought up several dealerships in the north Dallas area 2-3 years ago. The General Manager at Lewisville informed me that he also has a CHL and understands my frustration, but the decision is out of his hands. So, I started looking for another dealership not affiliated with Autonation. Enter Grapevine Nissan. I visited with them last week and they are not posted. I didn't not tell them anything more than that I had a customer service issue with Lewisville and we discussed nothing regarding firearms.

The service manager at Grapevine told me they've been getting people from all of the Autonation Nissan dealers in the area for a couple of years now complaining about customer service ever since Autonation took over. I just left it at that and will be taking my two Nissan's over to them now.

Auto Nation Chevrolet in Houston posted up both signs as well. I asked my salesman about it and he said they had no choice but to put it up.

Auto Nation Toyota in Austin also showed up on texas3006.com - I thought about contacting them about it, but after my free checkups ran out, I haven't been back except for my free oil changes for life. It takes them so long to change oil, though, that I've been going to Jiffy Lube and paying them instead of getting my free oil change at Auto Nation. It says a lot that I'd rather pay money somewhere else than get it free.

I have a Toyota, my wife has a Toyota, and my MIL has a Toyota, but I can guarantee our next vehicle won't be purchased there unless they change their ways.

[LucasMcCain]

Can you decipher what he's requesting my opinion on? Clearly, he doesn't know that open carry was first legal on January 1, but beyond that I'm not 100% certain what he's wanting me to elaborate on. Thoughts?

As far as I can tell, he would like to appease both groups. He also seems to have some concern as to legal liability.

I am most certainly not a lawyer, but I was taught that I am responsible for my firearm and any projectiles fired from it. I have not seen anything to indicate that property owners are in any way liable for anything I do with my weapon while on their property. To the best of my knowledge, that liability lies solely with the person carrying the firearm. Knowing that might ease his mind on that count.

I prefer to take my money to businesses that don't post at all, but a 30.07 will not stop me from doing business with an establishment. A 30.06 will. I think for this particular case, just posting a 30.07 might be the best course of action. The majority of LTCs will not be put off by it, and the antis will feel secure because they see a "no guns" sign. Everyone carrying will do so concealed; everyone else will have a shopping experience free from the sight of guns; everybody wins.

So, course of action time:
Try to get something from a lawyer stating his lack of liability. Barring that, just inform him that people carrying are responsible for anything that happens involving their weapon. Make sure that he understands the difference between the two signs. Advise him that removing the 30.06 and keeping the 30.07 will please virtually everybody. Continue being super polite and constructive as you have been so far. (You've done really awesome with that, by the way.)

Hope this helps.